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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9487666" data-attributes="member: 6750235">Being a &quot;half-caster&quot; compared to a &quot;full-caster&quot; only limits access to higher level spells.&nbsp; The spells they share do the sames effects with the same DC formula.Comparing Artificers to Paladins and Rangers only reduces the &quot;half-caster&quot; label to meaningless because that label is the same for all three.Why would we presume they should compete with Paladins and Rangers, more martial classes, at damage?The Battle Smith already gets Extra Attack and isn't splitting the weapon attack ability score and spell ability score like Paladins and Rangers because of the Battle Ready ability.If I were to look at the Battle Smith I wouldn't give the EK or Valor Bard Extra attack feature to them.&nbsp; It's a pet option so I would look at whether or not to enhance the pet abilities.I don't agree here.&nbsp; Bards have a small bonus to skills they don't focus on through Jack of all Trades and Expertise an a few skills.&nbsp; And someone else might use BI for a bonus.Rogues have Expertise in a few skills and Reliable Talent.Artificers have Expertise in every check that includes using a tool proficiency in the check.&nbsp; That includes Performance with a musical instrument or using Thieves Tools if we're talking about Bards and Rogues.That means Expertise on things like prying open doors with Smith's Tools, or using a Disguise Kit, or using a Forgery Kit, or using Navigator Tools as examples.It just depends on having some decent tool proficiencies just like Expertise needs the PC to have useful skill proficiencies, and taking actions that use them.Flash of Genius is a bonus on top of that.&nbsp; With advantage if there's also a skill proficiency involved.&nbsp; Plus Spells an Infusions for added support.Artificers are fine in that regard, IME.Infusions start at 2nd level.&nbsp; Replicate Magic Item adds to being an &quot;expert type&quot;, especially at 6th level.By 7th level, when Rogues gain Reliable Talent, Artificers have quite a bit going for them in this area.What did they lose?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 9487666, member: 6750235"] Being a "half-caster" compared to a "full-caster" only limits access to higher level spells. The spells they share do the sames effects with the same DC formula. Comparing Artificers to Paladins and Rangers only reduces the "half-caster" label to meaningless because that label is the same for all three. Why would we presume they should compete with Paladins and Rangers, more martial classes, at damage? The Battle Smith already gets Extra Attack and isn't splitting the weapon attack ability score and spell ability score like Paladins and Rangers because of the Battle Ready ability. If I were to look at the Battle Smith I wouldn't give the EK or Valor Bard Extra attack feature to them. It's a pet option so I would look at whether or not to enhance the pet abilities. I don't agree here. Bards have a small bonus to skills they don't focus on through Jack of all Trades and Expertise an a few skills. And someone else might use BI for a bonus. Rogues have Expertise in a few skills and Reliable Talent. Artificers have Expertise in every check that includes using a tool proficiency in the check. That includes Performance with a musical instrument or using Thieves Tools if we're talking about Bards and Rogues. That means Expertise on things like prying open doors with Smith's Tools, or using a Disguise Kit, or using a Forgery Kit, or using Navigator Tools as examples. It just depends on having some decent tool proficiencies just like Expertise needs the PC to have useful skill proficiencies, and taking actions that use them. Flash of Genius is a bonus on top of that. With advantage if there's also a skill proficiency involved. Plus Spells an Infusions for added support. Artificers are fine in that regard, IME. Infusions start at 2nd level. Replicate Magic Item adds to being an "expert type", especially at 6th level. By 7th level, when Rogues gain Reliable Talent, Artificers have quite a bit going for them in this area. What did they lose? [/QUOTE]

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