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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Joshua Randall" data-source="post: 9595145" data-attributes="member: 7737">How is Normal Guy happy? He never said he wanted to be an unpowered underdog. YOU wrote that in. Here is what he said:I want to play a character who doesn’t use any magic at all. Magic killed his parents, stole his girlfriend, and ran off with his dog. He never, ever, ever will use or do anything magical. Let's assume Normal Guy has the same desires as Magic McMagic. They both want to have fun playing the game. They both want to live out heroic fantasies as larger-than-life heroes (whatever "hero" means, could be amoral murder-hobo, that's D&D).Do you honestly feel that is a fair solution for these two players at your table?Ding ding ding. We have a winner. This is always an argument about narrative control. What it exposes is the belief system that, according to some (not you, BrokenTwin), non-magical characters and the players who are foolish enough to play them do not DESERVE as much narrative control as magical characters.By playing 4e. zingAccording to some in this thread: nothing! Because literally anything that transcends normal human capability even a little bit is magic.Exactly. There is even a term for this, from the late lamented wizards CharOpt forum (in Armisael's signature so I assume he invented it):Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).But what a lot of people seem to be saying is that the Mountain Cleave Rule does not apply. Magic McMagic can warp reality with his spells, but Normal Guy With A Sword? Screw that guy. He can't do anything even remotely "magical" to break reality.We're not talking about any system other than D&D, here.No, he does not. That is your assumption. Allow me to quote him again:I want to play a character who doesn’t use any magic at all. Magic killed his parents, stole his girlfriend, and ran off with his dog. He never, ever, ever will use or do anything magical. And allow me to reiterate this assumption:Let's assume Normal Guy has the same desires as Magic McMagic. They both want to have fun playing the game. They both want to live out heroic fantasies as larger-than-life heroes (whatever "hero" means, could be amoral murder-hobo, that's D&D).In 5e, maybe.Why, though? Why couldn't he be the D&D equivalent of a SEAL Team 6 operator? The absolute peak of human physical development and training, just without the tech and guns. What can Normal Guy now do, in your game?Maybe in 5e.Maybe in 5e.It was done in 2008.</blockquote>

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