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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 9644494" data-attributes="member: 2629">Again, please read my responses if you're going to criticize them.  My main argument is that you DO NOT NEED to provide those weapons.  Yes, I pointed out to someone that you can give them the tool as part of the adventure as one way to move the story forward - but my initial suggestions had nothing to do with it.  Your focus is on a side comment of mine, here, not my main argument.Again, this is not true and we can thank Hollywood for countless examples of how heroes defeat villains that they can't hurt with weapons.  You can argue that your group was not allowed to be effective by a DM that negated their solutions, or that players didn't look for options outside of their wacking sticks ... but saying the ONLY SOLUTION is out of their control is incorrect.  Across many DMs and in many groups I have personally seen a lot of creative problem solving where these abilities were used as intended by the designers.Yes.  And if I drop a volcano on a fighter they die every time as well.  Nuclear bombs are also pretty much a sure fire kill.  They're also lousy story telling and any DM that sets them up to just kill a player is ignoring most of the guidance in the DMG.  Would you sit at that table?  Where, as you note, a DM is contriving a way to slowly torture and kill a PC ...... although I would argue that you're still avoiding creativity.  You can keep contriving ways to counter the fighter moves, but a creative player can keep on coming up with them.And your argument, by the way, is also an argument against allowing ranged weapons.  If you put a fighter at the bottom of an unclimbable pit and give a kobold a sling and unlimited stones ... eventually the fighter dies.  Should we remove all ranged weapons?  ... binary.  Yes or no.  1 or 0.  That is what you're missing here.  It isn't binary.  Again, this type of mechanic is an ENABLING mechanic that creates opportunities for stories.  It creates a spectrum of potential situations primarily for low level PCs to struggle against and overcome without resorting to roll/damage/repeat solutions.  It is dynamic - and can be used for great story telling.  Yes, we can house rule.  I house ruled mechanics right back in.  Over the past 6 months I have been using a mix of 2014, 2024 and hybrid versions of monsters.  That is kind of a meaningless point.  The question at hand that has been debated here is whether the mechanics are beneficial or detrimental ... and it is entirely non-opinion objective fact that the mechanic, when used as designed to be used, has enabled and resulted in MANY really great encounters, adventures and storylines.  We like to say things like, "You're entitled to your opinion" without really thinking about it whether it is an opinion ... which has eroded our sense of truth.  We give the people the freedom to decide that fact is not fact, but instead that we have the freedom to decide whether the Earth is flat or whether people have traveled to the moon.  That line of thinking is half the reason our world is so screwed up today.  It enables people to ignore facts and stick to arguments that make no sense because their ego demands it.  Here, these mechanics ENABLED storytelling, encouraged inventive problem solving, and contributed to dynamic storytelling.  They were not a tax as you were expected to deal with the monsters without 'paying the tax'.  People could use the mechanics poorly, just as with any other mechanic in D&D, but they created a lot of good.  You can argue that they needed more support by giving DMS guidance to ensure new DMs did not use them without considering them.  I've always been in support of the DMG actually providing guidance to DMs that was not there.  I advocated in another thread that someone should run a DM university set of videos using D&D books, forums and threads as a syllabus to train DMs in different ways to improve their games.  I would definitely think that these mechanics should be addressed as a lesson topic.  However, that is not really a point about the mechanic specifically as there are countless other situations that are equally as dangerous if not used properly (such as fights near tall cliffs at low level, the dangers of ranged weapons I discuss above, certain combinations of abilities being near autokills (summon undead +poison), etc...) I'll point you back to my prior posts.  Consider them.  They address your points.  Be open to the idea that you missed an opportunity and consider how you might utilize the mechanics to tell a great story with players.Good luck.</blockquote>

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