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2024 Player's Handbook Reveal #2: "New Fighter"
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9379628" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>My math was <em>already</em> accounting for the Champion never being in a situation where they cannot make every attack they're able to make. This does not change anything.</p><p></p><p>Also, how on earth could it mean 4 extra attacks at that point? The only way that could <em>possibly</em> happen is if you're crediting the Champion with Action Surge, but not the Battle Master...but <em>at some point</em> the BM is going to be in melee too, so it's ridiculous to assume the Champion gets it but the BM never does. I absolutely reject the idea that advantage on Initiative would result in earning two whole rounds of attacks that the BM simply can't make. That's nonsense. <em>One</em> round, <em>some</em> of the time, I could maybe grant. Absolutely not two rounds. Making a total of 6 extra attacks <em>per day</em> would give you...less than 1/3 of a crit on average. Not anywhere <em>near</em> enough to matter.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This, however, I had not accounted for. Using TWF would result in (slightly) more attacks, particularly early on, but you trade away a significant loss of potency in the doing: no weapon compatible with TWF has a damage die higher than d6, so those crits are only earning you (on average) 3.5 damage, compared to the 4.5-6.5 damage of Battle Master maneuvers (even if, as stated, we presume BMs <em>do not ever</em> use their maneuver dice on critical hits), meaning they have to get <em>even more</em> additional attacks to make up the difference. (8d8 is 36 average; that would mean a Champ with 1d6 weapons would need to get about 10 extra crits per day to make up the difference. Even if the Champ <em>always</em> gets 3 attacks per round from TWF, that's still 10*19/3 = 63-64 rounds of combat--shave off a couple for Action Surge and you still end up with 60+, which means you'd need six 10-round combats <em>per day</em> just to keep up with the BM that never gets more than ONE short rest per day.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I already accounted for that. I assumed 15 combat rounds (three fights of five rounds), one short rest, three fights of five rounds, long rest. In 15 rounds, the BM is essentially guaranteed to land <em>at least</em> four attacks. Hence, there will essentially never be a situation where the BM is somehow not getting 4d8 damage per short rest--the more attacks you make, the more nearly guaranteed it becomes. Since Champions absolutely depend on having more attacks per round in order to get their bonus, there is never a world where the Champion is getting more crits but the BM is not getting in all of her Superiority Dice per rest.</p><p></p><p>It doesn't matter whether they're happening in every fight or not; I'm averaging across <em>all</em> fights per rest. BMs get a floor of +4d8 damage per rest. I assumed <em>one</em> short rest per day, meaning a total of +8d8. For the Champion to overcome that, even with TWF, they have to have a stupidly high number of extra rounds. It's simply not possible--despite this situation being <em>distinctly</em> unfair to the BM (who would very much rather get one more short rest per day.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, they are. Three of your four points were completely irrelevant, and the third is a mixed bag, because while it does increase the number of attacks made, it only does so by dropping the damage dice for those crits. A TWF Champion using d6 weapons would be making 90 attacks over those six combats rather than 60. Hence, the BM would get 3 crits (5%) while the Champion would get around 9 crits, give or take. However, the BM can use a greatsword (2d6) or greataxe (1d12), while the Champ cannot, so those 3 crits are actually 6d6 bonus damage (three hits of 2d6). The Champion is getting ~9d6 damage in total from their crits (9 hits of 1d6 damage). As a result...the Champion is only ahead by 3d6 from their crit bonus, while the Battle Master is ahead by 8d8 from their maneuvers. I don't know about you, but I'd say 8d8 beats the everloving <em>crap</em> out of 3d6.</p><p></p><p>So: <em>if</em> the Champion could get better dice (say, a d8 light weapon), and <em>if</em> the Champion is somehow making MANY more attacks (as in...around 40 more), and <em>if</em> fights start off in such a way that the Champion winning initiative gets them a whole extra round of combat, and <em>if</em> the Battle Master is being starved of short rests, and <em>if</em> the party gets into a bazillion combats every single day...then sure, maybe it becomes possible for the Champion to keep up.</p><p></p><p>Until, of course, the Battle Master's dice get larger, or they get more dice....</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9379628, member: 6790260"] My math was [I]already[/I] accounting for the Champion never being in a situation where they cannot make every attack they're able to make. This does not change anything. Also, how on earth could it mean 4 extra attacks at that point? The only way that could [I]possibly[/I] happen is if you're crediting the Champion with Action Surge, but not the Battle Master...but [I]at some point[/I] the BM is going to be in melee too, so it's ridiculous to assume the Champion gets it but the BM never does. I absolutely reject the idea that advantage on Initiative would result in earning two whole rounds of attacks that the BM simply can't make. That's nonsense. [I]One[/I] round, [I]some[/I] of the time, I could maybe grant. Absolutely not two rounds. Making a total of 6 extra attacks [I]per day[/I] would give you...less than 1/3 of a crit on average. Not anywhere [I]near[/I] enough to matter. This, however, I had not accounted for. Using TWF would result in (slightly) more attacks, particularly early on, but you trade away a significant loss of potency in the doing: no weapon compatible with TWF has a damage die higher than d6, so those crits are only earning you (on average) 3.5 damage, compared to the 4.5-6.5 damage of Battle Master maneuvers (even if, as stated, we presume BMs [I]do not ever[/I] use their maneuver dice on critical hits), meaning they have to get [I]even more[/I] additional attacks to make up the difference. (8d8 is 36 average; that would mean a Champ with 1d6 weapons would need to get about 10 extra crits per day to make up the difference. Even if the Champ [I]always[/I] gets 3 attacks per round from TWF, that's still 10*19/3 = 63-64 rounds of combat--shave off a couple for Action Surge and you still end up with 60+, which means you'd need six 10-round combats [I]per day[/I] just to keep up with the BM that never gets more than ONE short rest per day.) I already accounted for that. I assumed 15 combat rounds (three fights of five rounds), one short rest, three fights of five rounds, long rest. In 15 rounds, the BM is essentially guaranteed to land [I]at least[/I] four attacks. Hence, there will essentially never be a situation where the BM is somehow not getting 4d8 damage per short rest--the more attacks you make, the more nearly guaranteed it becomes. Since Champions absolutely depend on having more attacks per round in order to get their bonus, there is never a world where the Champion is getting more crits but the BM is not getting in all of her Superiority Dice per rest. It doesn't matter whether they're happening in every fight or not; I'm averaging across [I]all[/I] fights per rest. BMs get a floor of +4d8 damage per rest. I assumed [I]one[/I] short rest per day, meaning a total of +8d8. For the Champion to overcome that, even with TWF, they have to have a stupidly high number of extra rounds. It's simply not possible--despite this situation being [I]distinctly[/I] unfair to the BM (who would very much rather get one more short rest per day.) Yes, they are. Three of your four points were completely irrelevant, and the third is a mixed bag, because while it does increase the number of attacks made, it only does so by dropping the damage dice for those crits. A TWF Champion using d6 weapons would be making 90 attacks over those six combats rather than 60. Hence, the BM would get 3 crits (5%) while the Champion would get around 9 crits, give or take. However, the BM can use a greatsword (2d6) or greataxe (1d12), while the Champ cannot, so those 3 crits are actually 6d6 bonus damage (three hits of 2d6). The Champion is getting ~9d6 damage in total from their crits (9 hits of 1d6 damage). As a result...the Champion is only ahead by 3d6 from their crit bonus, while the Battle Master is ahead by 8d8 from their maneuvers. I don't know about you, but I'd say 8d8 beats the everloving [I]crap[/I] out of 3d6. So: [I]if[/I] the Champion could get better dice (say, a d8 light weapon), and [I]if[/I] the Champion is somehow making MANY more attacks (as in...around 40 more), and [I]if[/I] fights start off in such a way that the Champion winning initiative gets them a whole extra round of combat, and [I]if[/I] the Battle Master is being starved of short rests, and [I]if[/I] the party gets into a bazillion combats every single day...then sure, maybe it becomes possible for the Champion to keep up. Until, of course, the Battle Master's dice get larger, or they get more dice.... [/QUOTE]
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