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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9379853" data-attributes="member: 6790260">I just don't see this happening often enough to be such a clear win case. I mean, imagine if the Champion kills with their very first attack--now you're having to account for all the possibilities where the Champion gets fewer attacks because they're not getting 2-3 attacks, they're getting just 1, or whatever. Or the times when there are, y'know, a lot of targets on the field, so killing one has no effect on whether or not the BM can make a further attack. Etc.I'm not saying advantage on initiative is bad. It isn't. It's very good, and very helpful. But it has very, very little effect on daily damage output. Not zero--as you've said, this can happen--but all sorts of other things can happen that are instead disadvantageous to the Champion. Not so with the Battle Master, and (as noted) I wasn't accounting for using maneuvers on crits, presuming that the BM never has dice available when critting, which is obviously incorrect.Your Champion, optimized out the wazoo for crit-fishing, that somehow magically has advantage on every attack they ever make (when the BM does not), is still falling behind the BM even at its weakest point, when it still has only 4d8. It becomes 5d8 at level 7, 5d10 at level 10, 6d10 at level 15 (and you recharge 1 die if you roll initiative and don't have any, meaning under the above example, it would actually be 7d10 or even 8d10 per rest), and 6d12 (with the possibility of 7 or 8) at level 18.The crit-fisher perma-advantage TWF Champion does not keep up. Even at just level 7, when nothing whatsoever has changed about the Champion's damage output, the bar has now moved up to 5d8 per rest, or ~22.5. Heck, even at level 10 nothing actually improves for the Champ--they get a second Fighting Style, but that would (at best) let them tread water in a new way (e.g. Archery, or GWF, or Defense), it wouldn't actually help them catch up. So by that point, the BM has both increased the size and number of their dice, to 5d10 (~27.5) per rest, while the Champion has done...nothing. Level 11 gives a slight reprieve, what with 2x EA, but you face the diminishing returns problem. From levels 1-4, TWF was letting you make 2x as many attacks. Levels 5-10, it lets you make 1.5x. Levels 11-19, it's only 4/3.This is why I say adding just a really small bonus--like +1d6 damage on a crit--would work wonders for making the Champion actually GOOD at what it does. Simple effect, roll more dice. Simple result, get more damage. Folks drawn to Champion for its simplicity won't be put out much by this, I should think. And that little bump in damage, especially on a crit-fisher build, would pretty handily solve the damage gap.Again: Advantage on initiative is great, and almost certainly better than "Remarkable Athlete"'s old effect (which was half proficiency to initiative checks, since the other parts were mostly worthless even for a ribbon, given most Champions will be proficient in at least one of Athletics or Acrobatics already.) But unless there have been some hefty changes elsewhere that specifically favor Champions somehow, I'm not seeing any of these changes actually fixing the damage gap.</blockquote>

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