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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9395557" data-attributes="member: 18">This is just laughable. There's no actual argument here. The idea that having vastly less HP is fine because "above level 16" (a range no-one plays in) WIS saves are common is hilariously nonsensical. Even enough CON to get +1 HP is a gigantic boost to real-terms survivability - If you have a d6 HD, that's about 30% more HP per level (ignoring the L1 max HP, but we can factor that in if you want to be difficult - you'll be doing the maths though). d8, it's still about 25% more. d10, 20% more, and so on (also it's slightly less of gain with fixed HP/level, but only slightly - what like 5% less?). +2 or more is amazing.I've played enough 5E to know HP are absolutely vital when stuff gets real. +WIS isn't terrible - it'll be far ahead of INT, CHA and STR if those aren't primaries for you (for combat survival specifically), though probably not DEX due to Initiative. But the idea that WIS saves are something that happen constantly and always has terrible consequences is failed is utter bollocks - most sessions pass with zero player-side WIS saves - and even those that happen are rarely Hold Person or the like, but like with CON, usually for lesser effects. CON is used for plenty of equally-fatal effects too - like Paralysis and Petrification. Ironic too that you attempt to call out Hold Person as something where WIS is better - realistically, if have say +2 WIS instead of +2 CON, you only have a 10-15% (it's not a straight number like a lot of people here mistakenly because they can't calculate how it actually works) higher chance to save, so still are quite likely to fail, and you probably have 20-30% less HP than the CON PC. And HP is the only defence that really works at that point. So over say, 100 incidences of Hold Person being cast on a PC, I daresay the CON PC will survive more than the WIS PC. We must admit it is impossible to calculate because it's fully situational (Hold Person is meaningless if no enemies are in position, physically and Initiative-wise, to take advantage, and probably instantly fatal regardless of HP if several are).What we can say saving-throw-wise is that CON, DEX and WIS saves are by far the most common. Of these DEX is usually to avoid or reduce damage where CON and WIS are more often to avoid conditions. INT, CHA and STR are drastically less common for saves and show 5E never really got around to redistributing saves (maybe that'll change in the new MM but I doubt it - they are decreasing how many actual spells monsters use which if anything might lower WIS and DEX slightly).The idea that tanks don't need CON unless they're Barbarians is just not even arguable though. That's such a bad claim that you should retract it.</blockquote>

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