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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9407796" data-attributes="member: 6750235">Schrodinger arguments are common for wizards (and bards).  That doesn't mean we should dismiss their experiences or write those arguments off as "they don't play wizards".  When we do that we're not addressing the points raised when we dismiss them.I have played wizards.Wizard alternatives are sorcerers, bards, and warlocks.  Their mechanism for changing spells is a single spell on leveling up.  The current 5e prep system for wizards is much better and the new memorize spell feature does on a short rest what those other classes need to level up to accomplish.This is incorrect.Sorcerers know the spells they choose.  It's much less than 2 per level.  It's 1 per level and later 1 per 2 levels.  Some bloodlines allow for additional spells but that's playing catch up.2024 changes increase sorcerer spells prepped and most subclasses add to spells prepped and that brings sorcerers more in line with what wizards have prepped, not what wizards have in their spell books.Sorcerers (and bards and warlocks) are also only gaining a subset of their spells as they select them leveling up.Spells prepped is closer now but in both versions wizards selecting rituals in their spell books effectively maintains that lead. The spell book has 44 spells selected by leveling and 9 spells by subclass and more.  Even at 9th level when the wizard has 27+ spell in his book and the sorcerer has 10 bonus spells with the stingy DM argument is better off.Scribing spells isn't expensive.  This argument is also based on the presumption that "every spell" is required when it's not.  The spells in the spell book leveling up are enough and the ability to spend gold on more is gravy.Other classes don't have the option to increase spells by spending gold.  It's a benefit, not a problem.Schrodinger arguments, yes.Again, that argument falls apart when the sorcerer cannot select from those spells daily and doesn't have access to the full wizard list in the first place.It's not "just like the sorcerer".  Sorcerers choose spells for their life and swap them out while leveling.  But now memorize spell does grant swapping in a spell needed on a short rest for wizzies.A wizard doesn't need to do outrageous things for the point brought up to be correct.  Those wizzies have clear advantages.Your complaint seems to be that wizards don't have all the advantages and that there are some benefits to playing those other classes.I would like a citation for 5th level being the average level for all games, but even if it were true it's not a reason to ignore other levels.However, at 5th level wizards have 17 spells in their book minimum and that's when they add memorize spell and the still don't need to prep rituals.  Those sorcs only have 6 spells from subclass which is easy to offset with those rituals.Sorcerers don't have the same spell list as wizards.  Wizards have nearly the entire spell list of sorcerers and many more from which to choose that sorcerers do not.Calling this "white board simulations" is missing key facts when looking at the drawbacks of those other classes.I can see where increasing the spells the sorcerer knows and allowing more spells from subclasses changes things a bit, but that's an improvement to sorcerers and doesn't take away the fact that sorcerers don't get to choose those subclass spells or easily change the spells taken.</blockquote>

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