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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9408901" data-attributes="member: 7030563">I mentioned rituals, but yeah I don't think that, even with Find Familiar is as good as selecting from the Cleric and Sorcerer list or as good as Strength of the Grave and an extra Cantrip.A Shadow Sorcerer's darkvision beats any familiar in the game and the vast majority of enemies that have darkvision and that is not even their primary 1st level ability.You only have two spell slots total at 1st level and shield is not very effective unless paired with Mage Armor, which uses one of them and if your Wizard is relying on Shield and Mage Armor at 1st level then that means they are also relying on Cantrips as well for most of their spell power and here a Sorcerer has a big advantage.If we were talking about 3rd level or 7th level or something it would be different, but at 1st level Strength of the Grave is huge.   The average enemy you will be facing does about 4 damage, meaning you need a 9 to save and have a +5 typically.  Certainly it does not work all the time, but it is going to work most of  the time at this level.No it isn't.   Shield has a straight 25% chance of preventing a hit (and going down) SOG statistically has about a 75% chance of keeping you from going down at 1st level, that is 3 times more likely to be the difference from the use itself, but on top of that it stacks with shield and does not use a reaction as well.  You can use strength of the Grave on something you can't shield and then still shield the very next attack.Guidance is arguably the best Cantrip in the entire game and the thing is you can get both Cleric and Sorcerer (which are mostly Wizard) spells.The two best 1st level spells in the game are Shield and Healing Word and a Divine Soul can get them both.You are just wrong.  Yo-yoing allies with healing word is probably more than anything else the most effective use of a 1st level spell in the game.I had an 8th level party that beat Orcus, and the way they did it was by casting healing word on the Barbarian over and over until he managed to down Orcus.   Now at 1st level you can't do that, but having healing word, as a bonus action way to bring up any ally is huge.You get 3 spells on a 1st level divine soul.  Usually that is going to be Bless, Healing Word and something else suitable to your specifics.  Maybe sleep, maybe shield, maybe Silvery Barbs, maybe SanctuarySure, but Cleric is the most powerful class at 1st level bar none and by a pretty wide margin.  This post is about Wizard vs Sorcerer though, not Cleric or Druid vs Sorcerer.Sure and all 4 of those are stronger than a Wizard at 1st level, including both of the Sorcerers you mention.DW is very strong, but at 1st level because of the limited number of spell slots and hit points it is not as powerful as Healing Word at any level.  In terms of offensive spells it is not as powerful as Sleep at this level.I've played all 3 Sorcerer subclasses mentioned and at  1st level AM is the weakest of the three, despite having the most spells, most cantrips.Metamagic is a big deal, and 4  sorcery points means you can twin two second level spells.  A 3rd level Sorcerer has two 2nd level spell slots.  He can twin hold person, use flexible casting to generate another one and then twin it again in another battle.  For the cost of a 1st and two second level slots he has cast Hold person on 4 enemies.That kind of thing is a huge multiplier in combat.I was calling "low level" anything below 6th level.  At 20th level you have 2 6th, 2 7th, 1 8th and 1 9th level spell per day.  That is 43 sorcery points to twin all of those high level spells.  You have 20 SPs, so you can do your highest two spells without even using a lower level slot, but yes Twinning Power Word Stun is going to be worth a 5th and 3rd level slot.That is not all though, for a measly 1 sorcery point you can lay down Psychic Scream on top of your martials and with careful spell, and while they will take 24 damage, the enemies they are mixed up with will mostly be stunned.The Sorcerer has 6d10 Firebolt on a single sorcery point and 9d10 on 3, plus the flexibility to do nearly as much with Chill Touch if they need to kill regeneration and enough Cantrips to have both of them on their list.To start with it is 6 levels of spells at 11th level,  but the Sorcerer has more 5th level spells than the Warlock and better spells to boot.  Animate Objects is the most powerful 5th level spell in the game.The sorcerer can swap out spells too and if the Warlock wants to have that EB/AB effectiveness they are going to need to keep Hex on that list.The invocations are mostly once a day casts.  Mage Armor and False Life being exceptions at early levels.  Mage Armor is fine, but having it and 3 other slots for a day is better than being able to do it at  will.False Life 6 extra temp hit points at will is not nothing, but it is not great eitherI agree, it is an example.  You harped on the number of 5th level spells.  The Sorcerer is usually going to be able to cast more if they want 5th level spells.Yes but you have those slots, while a Warlock does not.  A Sorcerer with 8 5th level spells to cast a day is going to be able to cast more than a Warlock  most of the time and cast them just as effectively.  Whether that is more powerful than using metamagic to enhance a smaller number is a different discussuion.This is not true.  Twinned Psycich Lance, Twinned Power Word Stun, Twinned Irresistable Dance are all extremely powerful.More to the point though you can Twin these spells (or Haste) without losing spell slots at all at the levels you get them.My example was that if you want to you can twin ALL of your high level slots at 20th level and it is not alot of them.  You need 23 levels of slots to do that.The at will spells are ok, not game changers in combat though and you only have 5 Invocations at 11th level with one presumably going towards AB and another related  to your pact.I've never gamed with a group that did a Short Rest immediately following a long rest and yes you can lose concentration pretty easy at 11th level, especially since you are not proficient in saving throws.More importantly though, your theory relies on the idea that you have a lot of 5th level slots, which if you are casting Haste or Hex for 24 hours, even if you hang on to concentration the whole day you are not getting the most effectiveness out of those slots.yeah you have 3 5th level slots per short rest, but you are not casting banishment on 2 bad guys, you are not casting Shadow of Moil, you are not casting Hold Monster because you are holding concentration on Hex or Haste.  That makes that short rest recharge much less valuable.</blockquote>

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