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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 9542466" data-attributes="member: 83242">I definitely agree with this statement; however,...Those other products (and I have a lot of them: Tomb of Beasts, Flee Mortals, Monstrous Menagerie, etc.) are not really geared for more powerful PCs. The non-WotC products do tend to have some more interesting design and they do cover some more of the options old WotC products don't, but they don't really address powerful character builds. All those 3PP products are loosely based on the 2014 DMG guidelines or statistical analysis of the 2014 MM (in LevelUp's case). Thus, they use a flawed foundation to build their monsters from. Let's look at an example (really the only highly level example we can compare between 2014, 2024, and 3PP), the Ancient Green Dragon. Also, because the LevelUp green is CR 24 vs CR 22 for the WotC version I also looked at the LevelUp white which is CR 22.<table style='width: 100%'><tr><th></th><th>2014</th><th>LevelUp</th><th>LevelUp (White)</th><th>2024</th></tr><tr><td>CR</td><td>22</td><td>24</td><td>22</td><td>22</td></tr><tr><td>AC</td><td>21</td><td>21</td><td>20</td><td>21</td></tr><tr><td>HP</td><td>385</td><td>420</td><td>370</td><td>402</td></tr><tr><td>Attack</td><td>+15</td><td>+15</td><td>+15</td><td>+15</td></tr><tr><td>DC</td><td>22</td><td>22</td><td>23</td><td>22</td></tr><tr><td>DPR</td><td>151</td><td>149-170</td><td>140-161</td><td>175-193*</td></tr></table>[spoiler=*DPR note]The DPR of the 2024 green is potentially low-balled. Without more information about the 2025 monster building guidelines/trends I went conservative. However, going strictly by the most powerful attacks each time you could get a DPR of 293. [/spoiler]Comparing the CR equivalent LevelUp White and WotC Green shows the 2014 green and the LevelUp white are very similar on raw power metrics and the 2024 green is a significant boost, comparable to the LevelUp green which is two levels higher (CR 24 vs 22).Is this the whole story? No, both the LevelUp dragons and the 2024 green do several other interesting things beyond what the 2014 green does that make them more threatening at the same CR. I still think the LevelUp dragons are slightly bettered designed (just my opinion/preference), but they do appear to be less threatening on an equal CR basis.So, are there really 3PP products out there that address powerful characters? I don't think so. Will the 2025 MM monsters address more powerful characters? I am not sure, but it appears they might do a better job than any current 3PP or WotC product.Personally I don't expect the 2025 MM to solve the issue of powerful character builds vs monsters. I do think the new monsters with the new encounter guide in the 2024 DMG will make encounters significantly more challenging, but CharOp builds will still likely handle these monsters with ease unless you have a very skilled DM. However, against more modest characters or ones with less tatical mastery, I think the 2025 monsters and 2024 encounter guidelines will be a big improvement.</blockquote>

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