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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jackinthegreen" data-source="post: 6069255" data-attributes="member: 6678119">If success is thought of as mechanical power assuming moderate optimization, then there's already a thread on that.  <a href="http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,640.0.html" target="_blank">http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,640.0.html</a>.  It got ported over, so the formatting needs work, but the thought exercise is fairly good in my eyes.Going down the list:Barbarian (Tier 4)Bard (Tier 3)Beguiler (Tier 3)Cleric (Tier 1)Dragon Shaman (not noted, but usually regarded as Tier 4/5 IIRC)Druid (Tier 1)Duskblade (Tier 3/4)Favored Soul (Tier 2)Fighter (Tier 5.  4 with Zhentarium variant and/or dungeoncrasher variant up to level 6)Hexblade (Tier 4/5)Knight (Tier 5)Marshal (Tier 4)Monk (Tier 5)Paladin (Tier 5)Ranger (Tier 4)Rogue (Tier 4)Scout (Tier 4)Sorcerer (Tier 2)Swashbuckler (Tier 5)Warlock (Tier 3/4)Warmage (Tier 4)Wizard (Tier 1)Most people regard Tiers 3 or 4 as the sweet spots since they have enough power and versatility to do pretty well but don't tend to cause undue problems with reasonable players unless they're taken to an extreme.  Or the DM can't wrap his head around some of the concepts, but that's a different discussion than mechanical ability even if they're sometimes related.  Tiers 5 and 6 tend to be viewed as mechanical failures.  Fighter, Hexblade, Knight, Monk, Paladin, and Swashbuckler all tend to have problems when looked at from a numerical standpoint.To answer your questions in more detail: the Beguiler performs about as well as a multiclass illusionist/rogue depending on what traits one looks at.  It's quite a fun class to play actually.The Knight simply fails to be an effective leader because the only things it can do for party members are grant an extra save against a fear effect and take a couple hits for the team here and there.  Its other abilities are fairly crappy and disjointed.  For example, it gets Mounted Combat as a bonus feat but doesn't actually have any class features that help it to be more than mediocre at that role.  If one wanted a class that can be an effective leader, the Bard tends to be the first thought about but other classes like the Marshal from the Miniatures Handbook, and the Crusader or Warblade from Tome of Battle.  Full casters like the Cleric, Wizard, and Druid can do it too thanks to the huge versatility of spells.</blockquote>

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