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Message: <blockquote data-quote="scott-fs" data-source="post: 1564971" data-attributes="member: 5714">I disagree.  Comparing a 2e Orc to a 3e Orc doesn't appear that the Orc got boosted as much in power as a PC might've.  Equipment has changed slightly.  In 3e Orcs use a Great Axe which does 1d12.  The closest Axe in 2e was the Battle Axe which only did 1d8.  In 2e, the Orc used a weapon that presumably did 1d8, of which sword or axe was commonly used.  So, either the Long Sword (which did 1d8/1d12), or the Scimitar 1d8 for the Orc in 2e.  Players also have access to the 1d12 Great Axe, so the power balance is the same.With that said, Monsters in 2e didn't have Ability scores, therefore we can only compare stats as follows:Orc --------- 3e --- 2eAttack: ----- +3 --- Thac0 19Armor Class: 14 --- 6Hit Points: - 1d8 --- 1d8Attack is about the only place where the Orc improves.  He is as easy to hit, and has the same amount of hitpoints.  A 3e 18 Strength Fighter has a +4 bonus to hit and damage.  A 2e Fighter (presuming we are very generous) give him a strength of 18/00, will only have a +3 bonus to attack, but +6 to damage.  Even a more conservative 18/50 strength will only give him a +1 to attack, +3 to damage.  The 3e Fighter has access to focus (+1 attack), while a 2e Fighter has access to specialization (+1 to attack, +2 to damage).Strength Scores and applicable attack bonuses.  I decided to include an 18/75 Strength Fighter for comparison sake:3e-14STR: +23e-18STR: +42e-18/50: +12e-18/75: +22e-18/00: +3Presuming Average Rolls for each fighter is a 10.3e Fighters:Str 18: +5+10=AC15Str 14: +3+10=AC13 (11 or higher to hit Orc)2e Fighters:Str 18/50: 19*-10=AC9 (13 or higher to hit Orc)Str 18/75: 18*-10=AC8 (12 or higher to hit Orc)Str 18/00: 17*-10=AC7 (11 or higher to hit Orc)* Remember that the 1st level Fighter's ThacO starts at 20.  To streamline combat, we usually subtracted our strength bonus from our Thac0, so that all we had to do was then subtract our roll to determine the AC we hit.  That is taken into account.So, the strongest possible fighter on his average day in 2e will miss the Orc on average, at the same rate as the 3e's 14 strength fighter.  The 18 strength 3e fighter is more often going to hit the Orc.Looking at Constitution, in 2e you didn't get bonus hitpoints until 15 Con.Con --- 3e -- 2e12 ---- +1 -- 013 ---- +1 -- 014 ---- +2 -- 015 ---- +2 -- +116 ---- +3 -- +217 ---- +3 -- +318 ---- +4 -- +4You'd have to have an reasonably high Con to get any benefit.  A 12 Con 3e character and a 15 Con 2e character are equivalent.  A 14 Con 3e Character and a 16 Con character is also equivalent.  A 16 Con 3e character is equivalent to a 17 Con WARRIOR.  Only Fighters, Paladins and Rangers benefited by having a Constitution greater than 16.A 18-Con 1st level Wizard could have the following starting hitpoints:2e: 4+2=63e: 4+4=8The 3e Wizard could also take the Toughness feat to boost his hitpoints higher.Then we go to Dexterity.  The chart comparing Dex is pretty much the same as for the Constitution comparison.My final conclusions: You needed high scores to get any benefits in 2e.  A 3e character only needs a 12 to get many equivalent benefits that a 2e character would get with a 15-16.Yes, some monsters got boosted.  The Orc did not (atleast to keep up with the 3e Fighter).</blockquote>

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