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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
2e, the most lethal edition?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 7636680" data-attributes="member: 15700"><p>Also, so spot checking for 3e:</p><p></p><p><strong>Save or Die:</strong> There were SoD effects in 3e, like the medusa's gaze. However, fort saves were easier to make in 3e compared to AD&D at the typical levels PCs faced them. In 3e, you added your Con modifier to your fort save, and level progression bonuses outstripped the roll needed in AD&D. For example, with said medusa, if a level 4 fighter in AD&D and a 3e version both face a medusa (likely level), the 3e fighter with typical Con needs to make a DC 15 save. But she gets a +7 bonus between Con and level, she only needs to roll an 8 or higher. An AD&D fighter with the same con needs to roll a 14. That's a big difference. </p><p></p><p>In regards to poisons, in 3e you got ability damage. Even with a very potent poison, pretty much every PC would survive at least one failed save (again, as mentioned, saves were easier). in AD&D, even an average poison (let alone a potent one) could kill you outright.</p><p></p><p>In 3e, you could also choose feats to improve your saving throws. Didn't have that in AD&D. You also didn't have ability score improvements in AD&D (which also impacted saves). I.e., a 11th level PC in 3e will have higher stats than a clone PC in AD&D that started at level 1 with the same stats, which translates into additional bonuses to saves that the AD&D PC doesn't get</p><p></p><p><strong>Level Drain</strong>: In AD&D, if you lost a level, you lost everything associated with it: all spell slots and spell capability from the levels lost, all hp, all attack bonuses, everything. It's a straight level loss. In 3e, you don't lose nearly as much, and you regain those levels after 24 hours</p><p></p><p><strong>Monsters</strong>: 3e doesn't have creatures like rot grubs. Mind flayers have to have all tentacles hit before killing you in 3e, and only needs 1 successful attack (then 1d4 rounds) in AD&D, and the 3e version has to succeed on a grapple check as well, which didn't exist in AD&D. Green slimes kills you in 1d4 rounds flat in AD&D, in 3e they only do 1d6 con damage per round. Molds are more deadly in AD&D. Etc.</p><p></p><p>And I'm not even comparing how 3e PCs are exceptionally more powerful than AD&D (especially casters and rogues) or how you didn't die at 0 hp. This is just hazard comparisons. I'm <strong>not </strong>saying 3e isn't deadly or lethal, but looking at like for like comparisons, it's not as deadly as AD&D, but more deadly than 4e or 5e. Lethality is much more than just HP soaking and damage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 7636680, member: 15700"] Also, so spot checking for 3e: [B]Save or Die:[/B] There were SoD effects in 3e, like the medusa's gaze. However, fort saves were easier to make in 3e compared to AD&D at the typical levels PCs faced them. In 3e, you added your Con modifier to your fort save, and level progression bonuses outstripped the roll needed in AD&D. For example, with said medusa, if a level 4 fighter in AD&D and a 3e version both face a medusa (likely level), the 3e fighter with typical Con needs to make a DC 15 save. But she gets a +7 bonus between Con and level, she only needs to roll an 8 or higher. An AD&D fighter with the same con needs to roll a 14. That's a big difference. In regards to poisons, in 3e you got ability damage. Even with a very potent poison, pretty much every PC would survive at least one failed save (again, as mentioned, saves were easier). in AD&D, even an average poison (let alone a potent one) could kill you outright. In 3e, you could also choose feats to improve your saving throws. Didn't have that in AD&D. You also didn't have ability score improvements in AD&D (which also impacted saves). I.e., a 11th level PC in 3e will have higher stats than a clone PC in AD&D that started at level 1 with the same stats, which translates into additional bonuses to saves that the AD&D PC doesn't get [B]Level Drain[/B]: In AD&D, if you lost a level, you lost everything associated with it: all spell slots and spell capability from the levels lost, all hp, all attack bonuses, everything. It's a straight level loss. In 3e, you don't lose nearly as much, and you regain those levels after 24 hours [B]Monsters[/B]: 3e doesn't have creatures like rot grubs. Mind flayers have to have all tentacles hit before killing you in 3e, and only needs 1 successful attack (then 1d4 rounds) in AD&D, and the 3e version has to succeed on a grapple check as well, which didn't exist in AD&D. Green slimes kills you in 1d4 rounds flat in AD&D, in 3e they only do 1d6 con damage per round. Molds are more deadly in AD&D. Etc. And I'm not even comparing how 3e PCs are exceptionally more powerful than AD&D (especially casters and rogues) or how you didn't die at 0 hp. This is just hazard comparisons. I'm [B]not [/B]saying 3e isn't deadly or lethal, but looking at like for like comparisons, it's not as deadly as AD&D, but more deadly than 4e or 5e. Lethality is much more than just HP soaking and damage. [/QUOTE]
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