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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
2e, the most lethal edition?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 7636734" data-attributes="member: 15700"><p>At 4th level, the fighter saved on an 8 in 3e. On a 14 in AD&D. A 10th level fighter in AD&D needed a 9 to pass. It looks like typical DCs for monsters in the MM have DCs around 21 for CR10 creatures. A 10th level fighter, not counting choosing feats to improve save chances, would have around a +11 bonus. So AD&D was much harder at most levels players actually play PCs with, with 3e finally overtaking the difficulty only at high levels. Levels that hardly were ever really played.</p><p></p><p></p><p>All of this is still better than "instantly die". If you're going to argue how 3e is more lethal than AD&D, then arguing how poison is not as bad in 3e isn't a good way to do so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You did recover in most cases after 24 hours on your own, doing nothing else. And you recovered much earlier via easily accessible spells. In AD&D, you lost levels immediately and permanently. Only a wish would recover them. And it wasn't "lose some hp, get a -1 penalty to attack, and lose one spell" like in 3e. It was lose the whole level, and everything that came with it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>2e didn't have that rule, so if you're arguing how 3e is more lethal than 2e, using a 1e rule isn't helping you. Even if you did, as lowkey pointed out, that was only if you went to exactly 0 hp on an attack. If you had 4 hp and took 9 hp of damage, you died. no -10 bleeding rule.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>CR in 3e was rated against the party it was going against. I.e., a CR 7 monster like a hill giant would be against a party of 7th level PCs. Not a level 7 fighter. To be comparable to AD&D, you have to look at the hit dice. So a hill giant would face off against a 12th level fighter in 3e. I find it dubious that a hill giant in 3e would demolish a 12th level fighter in one round or two. I don't see how that's possible looking at the giant's stat block, when its greatclub attack does 2d8+10 damage, once per round.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You're basically arguing "here's all things that were tough in 3e" that are all things that were tougher in AD&D (2e specifically). Not exactly the best argument to convince me why 3e was a more lethal system than 2e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 7636734, member: 15700"] At 4th level, the fighter saved on an 8 in 3e. On a 14 in AD&D. A 10th level fighter in AD&D needed a 9 to pass. It looks like typical DCs for monsters in the MM have DCs around 21 for CR10 creatures. A 10th level fighter, not counting choosing feats to improve save chances, would have around a +11 bonus. So AD&D was much harder at most levels players actually play PCs with, with 3e finally overtaking the difficulty only at high levels. Levels that hardly were ever really played. All of this is still better than "instantly die". If you're going to argue how 3e is more lethal than AD&D, then arguing how poison is not as bad in 3e isn't a good way to do so. You did recover in most cases after 24 hours on your own, doing nothing else. And you recovered much earlier via easily accessible spells. In AD&D, you lost levels immediately and permanently. Only a wish would recover them. And it wasn't "lose some hp, get a -1 penalty to attack, and lose one spell" like in 3e. It was lose the whole level, and everything that came with it. 2e didn't have that rule, so if you're arguing how 3e is more lethal than 2e, using a 1e rule isn't helping you. Even if you did, as lowkey pointed out, that was only if you went to exactly 0 hp on an attack. If you had 4 hp and took 9 hp of damage, you died. no -10 bleeding rule. CR in 3e was rated against the party it was going against. I.e., a CR 7 monster like a hill giant would be against a party of 7th level PCs. Not a level 7 fighter. To be comparable to AD&D, you have to look at the hit dice. So a hill giant would face off against a 12th level fighter in 3e. I find it dubious that a hill giant in 3e would demolish a 12th level fighter in one round or two. I don't see how that's possible looking at the giant's stat block, when its greatclub attack does 2d8+10 damage, once per round. You're basically arguing "here's all things that were tough in 3e" that are all things that were tougher in AD&D (2e specifically). Not exactly the best argument to convince me why 3e was a more lethal system than 2e. [/QUOTE]
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