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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
2e, the most lethal edition?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7636739" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>That proves what I said. The AD&D fighter's save improved from needing a natural 14, to needing a natural 9 - and that's vs anything trying to petrify or polymorph him, from a cockatrice to a medusa to a 19th level Lich. He got /much/ better. Your 18 CON 3e fighter goes from needing an 8 at 4th level vs a 4th level DC, to needing a natural 10, vs a 10th level DC. He got /worse/. And, that's his *GOOD* save, at 10th, he might well face a similar DC 21 save against which his bonus could be as low as +2 - maybe +4 or 6 with feat, decent stat, and/or protection item, that's not just worse than he had it at 4th level, that's worse than the 1e fighter had it at 4th level!</p><p></p><p>You claimed that there were no SoDs in 3e, and that 3e /save progression/ outstripped the AD&D save matrix. 3e /did/ have SoDs, and it has rising save DCs with level, net of which, even good saves fell behind the AD&D save matrix progression. </p><p></p><p>You brought up the save matrix and claimed that 3e save bonuses outstripped it. That brings in genuinely high levels - the matrix for the fighter topped out at 17+.</p><p></p><p></p><p>All of this is still better than "instantly die". If you're going to argue how 3e is more lethal than AD&D, then arguing how poison is not as bad in 3e isn't a good way to do so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Even in 1e, restoration, I think it was, could get you a level back, and you could buy those (there was a table with a price for it, it was steep).</p><p>And, remember how bad those saves, above, were? Negative levels required a save to recover from, the DC was set by the creature that bestowed the negative level, and the negative levels /gave you a save penalty/. To that save bonus that was already falling steadily behind the DCs at your level. </p><p>And, you wouldn't just get un-lucky and accumulate 1 or 2 now or then, you could have a specter reaching right through your tank-like magical armor as if it wasn't there, layering them on you every round.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Don't believe it didn't even exist as an option and/or wasn't /commonly/ used, and also don't care, because: 1) I'm sticking to 1e when I talk AD&D, thankyouverymuch. 2)I've happily acknowledged 2e's relative lethality, above. ,</p><p></p><p>It's not like the fighter got to hide in the back while the wizard melee'd the giant. The CR = level Giant was gonna attack someone, and that someone was in trouble.</p><p></p><p>There was no CR in AD&D, so there is no comparing monsters across eds based on CR or HD. The only valid comparison is the same monster. An Orc's an Orc, a Specter's a Specter, a Giant's a Giant - and they're all nastier in 3e than 2e because they have freak'n feats & stat bonuses, and they're all nastier in 2e than they were in 1e. It's just 2e character are hardly buffed from 1e characters to match, while 3e characters /are/ buffed with all the same crazy as the monsters (vice versa really, the 3e PCs got crazy build options, which the monsters also got, but the point stands).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7636739, member: 996"] That proves what I said. The AD&D fighter's save improved from needing a natural 14, to needing a natural 9 - and that's vs anything trying to petrify or polymorph him, from a cockatrice to a medusa to a 19th level Lich. He got /much/ better. Your 18 CON 3e fighter goes from needing an 8 at 4th level vs a 4th level DC, to needing a natural 10, vs a 10th level DC. He got /worse/. And, that's his *GOOD* save, at 10th, he might well face a similar DC 21 save against which his bonus could be as low as +2 - maybe +4 or 6 with feat, decent stat, and/or protection item, that's not just worse than he had it at 4th level, that's worse than the 1e fighter had it at 4th level! You claimed that there were no SoDs in 3e, and that 3e /save progression/ outstripped the AD&D save matrix. 3e /did/ have SoDs, and it has rising save DCs with level, net of which, even good saves fell behind the AD&D save matrix progression. You brought up the save matrix and claimed that 3e save bonuses outstripped it. That brings in genuinely high levels - the matrix for the fighter topped out at 17+. All of this is still better than "instantly die". If you're going to argue how 3e is more lethal than AD&D, then arguing how poison is not as bad in 3e isn't a good way to do so. Even in 1e, restoration, I think it was, could get you a level back, and you could buy those (there was a table with a price for it, it was steep). And, remember how bad those saves, above, were? Negative levels required a save to recover from, the DC was set by the creature that bestowed the negative level, and the negative levels /gave you a save penalty/. To that save bonus that was already falling steadily behind the DCs at your level. And, you wouldn't just get un-lucky and accumulate 1 or 2 now or then, you could have a specter reaching right through your tank-like magical armor as if it wasn't there, layering them on you every round. Don't believe it didn't even exist as an option and/or wasn't /commonly/ used, and also don't care, because: 1) I'm sticking to 1e when I talk AD&D, thankyouverymuch. 2)I've happily acknowledged 2e's relative lethality, above. , It's not like the fighter got to hide in the back while the wizard melee'd the giant. The CR = level Giant was gonna attack someone, and that someone was in trouble. There was no CR in AD&D, so there is no comparing monsters across eds based on CR or HD. The only valid comparison is the same monster. An Orc's an Orc, a Specter's a Specter, a Giant's a Giant - and they're all nastier in 3e than 2e because they have freak'n feats & stat bonuses, and they're all nastier in 2e than they were in 1e. It's just 2e character are hardly buffed from 1e characters to match, while 3e characters /are/ buffed with all the same crazy as the monsters (vice versa really, the 3e PCs got crazy build options, which the monsters also got, but the point stands). [/QUOTE]
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