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D&D Older Editions
2e, the most lethal edition?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 7640171" data-attributes="member: 15700"><p>I didn't cherry pick anything. I gave a list of some of the more common monsters one would expect to encounter. You're the one who made the claim that damage = 10xCR was "almost clockwork". And it's not. Well, maybe if you were intending to reference the "even a broken clock is right twice a day" standard. Go look at other monsters like the hippogriff, or several others. Your "clockwork" standard doesn't hold up. Besides of which, what an arbitrary way to evaluate something. There are no CRs in TSR D&D, so right out of the gate you're comparing apples and oranges. An AD&D owlbear would be a CR3 creature maybe? And they can do 24 points of damage. 3e they are CR 4 with 32 points of potential damage? They are both 8 damage per CR. Doesn't exactly show how 3e monsters are much harder by comparison.</p><p></p><p>And yes, 3e PCs at low level are more powerful than TSR era ones. I already gave the reasons for this upthread, so I won't repeat them all with the math...again. Between 3e PCs starting at max hp, having better chances to hit, pass saves MUCH easier than TSR PCs do (and when they do fail, they don't instant die by poison like they do in TSR era), rolling 4d6 drop lowest compared to 3d6 in order (default for every TSR edition except 1e), extra spellcasting (cantrips), much less chance to get spells interrupted, no chance of failing to learn spells, MUCH better chance to succeed at skills, ability to score critical hits as core, each class having extra powers via baked in powers and feats, every class getting CON HP bonuses, and blanket multiclassing rules not limited to only demi-humans, I don't see how you can possibly argue that 3e PCs not more powerful than TSR era ones. You talk about cherry picking, but you're only using an example of a specialized fighter. There are more classes in TSR D&D than a fighter.</p><p></p><p>If you're not convinced, I don't know what to tell you. The list is pretty extensive and the math is pretty sound.</p><p></p><p>*Edit* also, stop with this claim of "I can kill a 5HD creature in 1 round". It's not true. Even a specialized fighter with two weapons only gets 2 attacks the first round (one with primary, one with secondary), takes a stiff penalty to do so (-2/-4 to hit respectively). Let's even be generous and assume that fighter has a 16 strength. That's 1d12+3 and 1d8+1 damage in the first round (assuming weapon spec in the long sword). Or 16 points of damage against large creatures. 1d8+3 and 1d6+1 against S/M (12 points). A 5 HD creature has 33 HP on average.</p><p></p><p>For Christ's sake, a <em>housecat </em>will kill a 1st level MU in TSR era D&D...</p><p></p><p>What's that you're saying about facts...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 7640171, member: 15700"] I didn't cherry pick anything. I gave a list of some of the more common monsters one would expect to encounter. You're the one who made the claim that damage = 10xCR was "almost clockwork". And it's not. Well, maybe if you were intending to reference the "even a broken clock is right twice a day" standard. Go look at other monsters like the hippogriff, or several others. Your "clockwork" standard doesn't hold up. Besides of which, what an arbitrary way to evaluate something. There are no CRs in TSR D&D, so right out of the gate you're comparing apples and oranges. An AD&D owlbear would be a CR3 creature maybe? And they can do 24 points of damage. 3e they are CR 4 with 32 points of potential damage? They are both 8 damage per CR. Doesn't exactly show how 3e monsters are much harder by comparison. And yes, 3e PCs at low level are more powerful than TSR era ones. I already gave the reasons for this upthread, so I won't repeat them all with the math...again. Between 3e PCs starting at max hp, having better chances to hit, pass saves MUCH easier than TSR PCs do (and when they do fail, they don't instant die by poison like they do in TSR era), rolling 4d6 drop lowest compared to 3d6 in order (default for every TSR edition except 1e), extra spellcasting (cantrips), much less chance to get spells interrupted, no chance of failing to learn spells, MUCH better chance to succeed at skills, ability to score critical hits as core, each class having extra powers via baked in powers and feats, every class getting CON HP bonuses, and blanket multiclassing rules not limited to only demi-humans, I don't see how you can possibly argue that 3e PCs not more powerful than TSR era ones. You talk about cherry picking, but you're only using an example of a specialized fighter. There are more classes in TSR D&D than a fighter. If you're not convinced, I don't know what to tell you. The list is pretty extensive and the math is pretty sound. *Edit* also, stop with this claim of "I can kill a 5HD creature in 1 round". It's not true. Even a specialized fighter with two weapons only gets 2 attacks the first round (one with primary, one with secondary), takes a stiff penalty to do so (-2/-4 to hit respectively). Let's even be generous and assume that fighter has a 16 strength. That's 1d12+3 and 1d8+1 damage in the first round (assuming weapon spec in the long sword). Or 16 points of damage against large creatures. 1d8+3 and 1d6+1 against S/M (12 points). A 5 HD creature has 33 HP on average. For Christ's sake, a [I]housecat [/I]will kill a 1st level MU in TSR era D&D... What's that you're saying about facts... [/QUOTE]
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