Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
2e, the most lethal edition?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 7640259" data-attributes="member: 15700"><p>Oh, well hey, let me set up a few rounds with the right spell combos then in 3e, and I'll see your damage and up you by a ton!</p><p></p><p>I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this excuse. When people say "I can do this in one round!" they typically mean it to mean the first round. Not after other conditions from previous rounds have been met. SMH</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it doesn't. Well, not for apples to apples, which is character generation. You're moving the goal posts again to compare unlike comparisons. For chargen, 3e assumes 4d6 drop lowest. In every edition of TSR era except 1e, it assumes 3d6 in order. If you understand basic math, that means you know that the average 3e PC will have higher stats than the 2e comparison. Which of course translates into a more powerful PC, not just on raw numbers (because stats in 3e gave you higher bonuses for the same # your stat is with the lone exception of exceptional STR for fighters--a rare corner case), but because it impacts everything else in 3e, from saving throws, save DCs, skill checks, etc. And since <em>ALL </em>PCs in 3e could have a CON bonus depending on on CON and it wasn't limited as in AD&D. You keep ignoring these things. <em>ALL </em>classes in 3e could get a bonus higher than +1/+3 if they had an 18 strength. <em>ALL </em>classes could get a CON bonus higher than +2. If one edition has limitations the other doesn't, guess what that means, by the definition of what limitation is?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We're talking about low level comparisons and you throw out a dragon? More goal post shifting. 3e gives bonuses even at level 1 that you don't see in TSR era. Regardless of STR/DEX modifier, the fighter gets a bonus to hit on all attacks. Then also gets a feat to improve that even more (didn't exist in AD&D). Casters got bonuses to hit and saves based on ability scores that TSR era PCs never got. Rogues got an exponential boost in success rates at their skills than their TSR era thief counterparts got. All of this is at level 1.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, so far your opinion has been wrong on many accounts, so forgive me if I don't give this much weight either. Especially since even just a cursory glance at the math easily disproves this claim.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I brought up multiclass because the point is that <em>every </em>class can multiclass in 3e. You can't in AD&D, and for those demihuman races that could, you were limited in how high a level you can get. And you didn't get to choose which classes to multiclass in as you leveled. You were forced to split XP evenly. There <em>was </em>no level dipping in AD&D; it didn't exist. Gee, more limitations that didn't exist in 3e. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've provided a laundry list of ways in which 3e PCs (especially at lower levels) are more powerful than TSR era comparisons. I've done the math for you. All you have done is ignore all of that and given the one fighter specialization example, and you shift the goal posts with that as well. So you might want to back off on the pot shots full of irony here.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 7640259, member: 15700"] Oh, well hey, let me set up a few rounds with the right spell combos then in 3e, and I'll see your damage and up you by a ton! I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this excuse. When people say "I can do this in one round!" they typically mean it to mean the first round. Not after other conditions from previous rounds have been met. SMH No, it doesn't. Well, not for apples to apples, which is character generation. You're moving the goal posts again to compare unlike comparisons. For chargen, 3e assumes 4d6 drop lowest. In every edition of TSR era except 1e, it assumes 3d6 in order. If you understand basic math, that means you know that the average 3e PC will have higher stats than the 2e comparison. Which of course translates into a more powerful PC, not just on raw numbers (because stats in 3e gave you higher bonuses for the same # your stat is with the lone exception of exceptional STR for fighters--a rare corner case), but because it impacts everything else in 3e, from saving throws, save DCs, skill checks, etc. And since [I]ALL [/I]PCs in 3e could have a CON bonus depending on on CON and it wasn't limited as in AD&D. You keep ignoring these things. [I]ALL [/I]classes in 3e could get a bonus higher than +1/+3 if they had an 18 strength. [I]ALL [/I]classes could get a CON bonus higher than +2. If one edition has limitations the other doesn't, guess what that means, by the definition of what limitation is? We're talking about low level comparisons and you throw out a dragon? More goal post shifting. 3e gives bonuses even at level 1 that you don't see in TSR era. Regardless of STR/DEX modifier, the fighter gets a bonus to hit on all attacks. Then also gets a feat to improve that even more (didn't exist in AD&D). Casters got bonuses to hit and saves based on ability scores that TSR era PCs never got. Rogues got an exponential boost in success rates at their skills than their TSR era thief counterparts got. All of this is at level 1. Well, so far your opinion has been wrong on many accounts, so forgive me if I don't give this much weight either. Especially since even just a cursory glance at the math easily disproves this claim. I brought up multiclass because the point is that [I]every [/I]class can multiclass in 3e. You can't in AD&D, and for those demihuman races that could, you were limited in how high a level you can get. And you didn't get to choose which classes to multiclass in as you leveled. You were forced to split XP evenly. There [I]was [/I]no level dipping in AD&D; it didn't exist. Gee, more limitations that didn't exist in 3e. I've provided a laundry list of ways in which 3e PCs (especially at lower levels) are more powerful than TSR era comparisons. I've done the math for you. All you have done is ignore all of that and given the one fighter specialization example, and you shift the goal posts with that as well. So you might want to back off on the pot shots full of irony here. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
2e, the most lethal edition?
Top