[3.0] Questions about Scry: ultimate espionnage tool?

[Altamont Ravenard]

Hello all, a little question about Scrying (the skill and the spell).

The DC to beat in order to Scry someone you've never met and never seen is 20. Basically, this means that for an average wizard (Int 16), 7 ranks in Scry will be enough to spy on anyone (who's not magically protected) simply by taking 10 with your Scry skill check.

Isn't this insanely powerful?

I'm DM'ing a medium-high-ish evil FR campaign right now. The characters have attacked a manor where resided an enemy wizard. The wizard in question got a good look at one of the characters (the party invoker). Does this mean that the enemy wizard can scry the invoker whenever he pleases, and thus teleport in at pretty much any time?

The party also stole from the tomb of a famous hero in the capital's Hero's Garden (cemetary). Does this mean that any high level wizard can decide to "Scry the bastards who stole Amoyatsu's armor, sword and medallion"?

I realize that the characters can notice that they are being scryed on, but that does them little good...

To make my life simpler (and give my players a chance to survive) should I use another version of Scrying?

Thanks in advance

AR

 

[dcollins]

Magical scrying is one of the biggest things in D&D (since the AD&D UA rules) that makes high-level play different from low-level play, or what most DM's generally expect plot-wise. Any DM who's running high-level play, I recommend get a very good familiarity with what's possible as far as scrying and counter-scrying goes. (I've a one page summary in my 3rd Ed. "thumbnail rules", here: www.superdan.net/download/thmbrule.rtf .)

- Scrying is powerful. Assuming you have some information on the person you're after, you're pretty certain to view them at some point. Murder-mystery plots are basically impossible in high level D&D.
- The Scry-Teleport routine I haven't seen in practice. But, I think the logical conclusion is that high-level wizards simply must have detect scrying running at all times, and probably reside in a forbiddance zone or similat protection.
- I wouldn't allow a Take 10 on a roll like this. Granted that the spell is a failure if you miss, I ask for a roll.

The wizard in question got a good look at one of the characters (the party invoker). Does this mean that the enemy wizard can scry the invoker whenever he pleases, and thus teleport in at pretty much any time?

Yes. The party needs to have some kind of protection against this, or kill the wizard first. Fear the high-level wizard.

The party also stole from the tomb of a famous hero in the capital's Hero's Garden (cemetary). Does this mean that any high level wizard can decide to "Scry the bastards who stole Amoyatsu's armor, sword and medallion"?

No. You must either know, meet, have heard of, or else possess a connection to the target (a picture, possession, body part, etc.). Here's the quote from the scrying spell:

Knowledge: None*... *You must have some sort of connection to a creature you have no knowledge of... Connection: Likeness or picture... Possession or garment... Body part, lock of hair, nail clippings, etc. (3.0 PHB p. 247-248)

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Thanks for the info and the summary.

A question about taking 10: Can't you take 10 anytime you're not stressed? I thought you could take 10 even if there are consequences for failing... ie if taking 10 isn't enough, you automatically fail, that's it...

So the evil Wizard can drop in on the Invoker, but not the good, guardian wizards. There goes my plan for a three-way confrontation.

My players are great, but most of them don't really bother to learn what their character can do. It's even more blatant when their characters are of higher level. That's why I don't like playing high-level games that much.

I'll probably tell the players (especially the magic-users) "Hey, don't forget that your enemies probably have access to this".

Thanks again

AR

 

[James McMurray]

AR: You're right about taking ten whenever you're not under pressure.

 

[Olive]

Magical scrying is one of the biggest things in D&D (since the AD&D UA rules) that makes high-level play different from low-level play, or what most DM's generally expect plot-wise.

Good post (except for that bit about taking 10 which is flat out wrong), but I just looked in the 1e UA, and there's no scry spell in there. So when was scrying introduced to the game?

 

[dcollins]

In the 1st Ed. UA, it's not just called scrying, there are different spell listings for each class.
- Cleric, 5th level, magic font.
- Druid, 2nd level, reflecting pool.
- Magic-User, 4th level, magic mirror.
- Illusionist, 5th level, magic mirror.


Regarding the "Take 10" adjudication, I tend to be a pretty strict DM in this area, and am not fond of automatic successes to important checks when it would be more dramatic to do a random roll. There must be some advantage to taking skill ranks past the +10 level.

I would personally point to 3.0 PHB p. 61 where it says "Taking 10: When you are not in a rush..." and say, "you are in a rush, you need to succeed before the spell duration is up". I feel that's within the bounds of DM interpretation. YMMV.

 

[Olive]

In the 1st Ed. UA, it's not just called scrying, there are different spell listings for each class.
- Cleric, 5th level, magic font.
- Druid, 2nd level, reflecting pool.
- Magic-User, 4th level, magic mirror.
- Illusionist, 5th level, magic mirror.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Stalker0]

I say go to the 3.5 scrying rules, much more balanced. Will saves, WILL SAVES!!! they always pass those will saves!!

 

[Spatula]

Hello all, a little question about Scrying (the skill and the spell).

The DC to beat in order to Scry someone you've never met and never seen is 20. Basically, this means that for an average wizard (Int 16), 7 ranks in Scry will be enough to spy on anyone (who's not magically protected) simply by taking 10 with your Scry skill check.

The DC will generally never get above an effective 15, since you need some sort of connection to scry someone that you've never seen, and the lowliest connection provides a +5 bonus to the roll. So a wizard with a 20 INT doesn't need any ranks at all in order to scry. Although if the target is on another plane, that's a -5 to the roll, so I guess the wizard might want a few ranks just to cover that possibility.

The primary use of ranks in Scry, then, is defensive. It's a DC 20 check to notice that you're being scried, and the Detect Scrying spell uses opposed Scry checks to determine if you can learn anything about your observer. Detect Scrying pretty much foils any attempt to use Scrying as a spying tool: it lasts 24 hours and lets you automatically detect any scry attempts within its rather sizeable radius, plus it gives you a chance to learn the identity of the spy.

Also, in Monte Cook's first Book of Eldritch Might there's a low-level spell that raises the DC to scry the caster.

As an espionage tool, the casting time and limited duration make scrying not so good (at least until Greater Scrying become available). You won't be able to spy on any event unless you know in advance the exact time it's going to take place. And even then there's always the possibility of the sensor being spotted.

As for stopping the scry-teleport trick, there's no effective counter in core 3.0.

The party also stole from the tomb of a famous hero in the capital's Hero's Garden (cemetary). Does this mean that any high level wizard can decide to "Scry the bastards who stole Amoyatsu's armor, sword and medallion"?

No, the caster needs some sort of description of or some sort of connection to the target.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I would personally point to 3.0 PHB p. 61 where it says "Taking 10: When you are not in a rush..." and say, "you are in a rush, you need to succeed before the spell duration is up". I feel that's within the bounds of DM interpretation. YMMV.

That's a very valid point.

Thanks for the input, all.

AR