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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Renfield" data-source="post: 1186712" data-attributes="member: 13493">Woo, getting a little tight in here <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> wonderful... anyway my personal definition of broken in regards to a spell is something so rediculously powerful that it truly does hinder a DM and ruin the fun of the game. I guess never having my fun ruined by any spells or abilities created in 3.0 and none of the spells or hindered my attempts at making an interesting game made me never consider these spells overpowered. I'm also still a little fond of some 2nd edition things such as gauntlets of Ogre Power actually giving you strength akin to an Ogre instead of a meer +2 which doesn't bring many people to the 20, 21 (can't remember which) str of an actual ogre. Still, that's an easily mendable 3.0 mistake... However haste giving extra attacks and spell casting, doesn't bother me much, especially if my players were to use it in some earlier combat. That way when the next wonderful encounter comes along said player has less spells. Or what is truly wonderful is when PC's come to rely on some sort of magic item or spell to get them through a situation. Then toss them into a situation where that ability is nigh useless?One example scenario:My dwarven cleric has his spells cast, his Greater Magic Weapon on his Waraxe, Bull's Str, and his Shield of Faith, all great for helping him in a melee battle. Then he and the party exit the tunnel they've been wandering and come out onto a ledge in a chasm. On the opposite side of the chasm are a group of archers, across the chasm is a rickity rope bridge that requires numerous balance checks or climb checks that are heavily penalized should the PC's get fired upon while crossing. Their one option is to enter a missile battle which leaves the Dwarf with a mere plus one bonus to using his crossbow granted to him from his dex. Meanwhile the Fighter, whom the Dwarf normally tops in melee combat when his spells are cast, has a rather nice attack bonus and a damage bonus because he has a composite longow and has an easier time picking off the enemy.Another example using Haste:Let's say the same senario is in effect, perhaps change the enemy archers to wizards who have cast protection from normal missiles on themselves. Or amybe even give the archers rings of protection from normal missiles. My parties wizard casts Haste, let's say on himself and then when his action comes along he casts haste on the parties fighter and fireball on the wizards/archers. So he does some damage to the wizards and/or archers and gives the fighter an extra shot with his mighty longbow. Fighters arrow goes through the wizard like smoke considering the arrow isn't enchanted, wizard can get off couple spells a round for the next few rounds, these spells while doing damage aren't too devastating, perhaps the wizards or archers have brooches of shield so the wizard wastes a couple magic missile spells. He's alread quickly depleting his third level spells which are quite combat heavy and the couple magic missile spells he's memorised. He's only wearing himself out. Is the DM going to be a nice guy and let them rest after that without interruption? After such a wonderful opportunity as a wizard wasting his spells? Nah. An extra partial action isn't that big of a deal even if it comes with an extra spell if you ask me. add quicken spell and you add another which is a nice use of feats though nothing that can't really be handled.As for climactic battles being rendered short thusly? Played a rather enjoyable game where my adventuring party wen't up against a wizard who was distributing cursed items and blaming it on other wizards. He had done a few other horrible things in the process of his quest to eliminate the competition and we went after him after investigating and roleplaying. He managed to get off a magic missile, our wizard was smarter and had memorized sleep. Guy was out so my rogue moved forward and performed a coup de grace, end of combat, while it was quick we were all rather satisfied for the enemy had been eliminated. I can't say I've ever dealt with Harm as being a spell issue as none of my players enjoy playing clerics and the DM I played a cleric under found that while my defences helped me in melee many CR7-11 monsters had more than a high enough attack bonus to hit my AC of 26 brought upon by the spells.Anyway, I'm shutting up now before I do something stupid like repeat myself.</blockquote>

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