D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] A tale of two spells

[DonAdam]

I'm firmly convinced that a different person was assigned to each spell in the 3.5 PHB. While each spell may have been improved in itself, they no longer balance against each other.

Case in point: Tasha's Hideous Laughter vs. Daze Monster.

Tasha's is now, without a doubt, the best low level attack spell out there. Let's compare:

• Descriptors: Same
• Level: Same for Sorc/Wizard, Tasha's is one level lower for bards (and, as we will see, is about 1000 times as powerful)
• Components: Same
• Range: Daze has Medium, Tasha's has Close- this is a point in Daze's favor, but a minor one
• Casting Time: Same
• Duration: Tasha's is ridiculously better: 1 round/level rather than 1 round
• Target: Tasha's wins by a mile again; Daze Monster won't work on anything higher than 6HD; Tasha's grants a save bonus for non-humanoids, but this only impairs success rates by 20%
• Save, Spell Resistance: same
• Effect: The same, except that Tasha's wins again by knocking the creature prone

For a 3rd level wizard casting against humanoids, Tasha's will result in an average of 2 more rounds of disabling an enemy, plus making them prone, only at the expense of range.

Against non-humanoids, Daze will work 20% more often (because of the +4 save against Tasha's). Relative to Daze, then, average number of rounds for a monster to be disabled will be .8 (works 80% as often) * 3 (for 3 times as many rounds) for 2.4 times as much success, again only at the cost of range.

For a bard it's worse: he gets Tasha's before he gets Daze Monster.

At higher levels, Tasha's doesn't just stay better, it gets exponentially better than Daze, because not only does the round duration continue to improve, but also Daze ceases to function past 6HD monsters.

So you think I'm picking on a weak spell? I am. Daze Monster sucks. But Tasha's is way too good. There's way too much disparity at that spell level.

Compare Tasha's to Hold Person. Hold Person only works on humanoids (so Tasha's has a distinct advantage there). It makes someone helpless, but allows a save every round. Tasha's allows one save and knocks the opponent prone. I would consider these spells to be of about the same power level, but Hold Person is one level higher.

This isn't unique to this spell. Take the ability buffs. I agree that there was too much buffing going on (for flavor reasons, YMMV) and that the ability pumping items didn't seem as important. However, now these spells are useless compared to other pump spells. Enlarge is far superior to Bull's Strength (especially for characters with reach weapons). Rage (at 3rd level), on the other hand, is decidedly worse than the ability pumping spells.

I'm sorry 3.5 designers, but Spider Climb is in no way more powerful than Enlarge. And with Haste nerfed, Slow is now the pimp mack. It's at least as good as a 5th level spell.

 

[brehobit]

Case in point: Tasha's Hideous Laughter vs. Daze Monster.

Yep, I was going to make exactly the same point. I really don't see how they are of the same power, let alone the bard getting THL before the Daze Monster!

Compare Tasha's to Hold Person. Hold Person only works on humanoids (so Tasha's has a distinct advantage there). It makes someone helpless, but allows a save every round. Tasha's allows one save and knocks the opponent prone. I would consider these spells to be of about the same power level, but Hold Person is one level higher.

I'd agree they are about the same, but H.P. is 2nd level for clerics still.

Enlarge is far superior to Bull's Strength (especially for characters with reach weapons). Rage (at 3rd level), on the other hand, is decidedly worse than the ability pumping spells.

Enlarge does give reach, but it gives a net -1 AC, +1 damage and no attack modifier for medium humanoids. Bull's strength gives +2 attack and +2 damage. Is the reach better than the bonuses? Maybe. It depends on what you are fighting and if you have combat reflexes. But for most the bull's strength will be signficantly better IMO. Of course they do stack...

Rage is much less useful when dealing with 1 target, but it might be a nice spell when you can effect 4 or 5 folks.

And with Haste nerfed, Slow is now the pimp mack. It's at least as good as a 5th level spell.

I agree, it is pretty good against a group. THL is (much) better against a single target though. 3rd or 4th level sounds about right to me.

 

[JoelF]

Another problem with the new hold person is that it somewhat weakens the slippery mind rogue class ability.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Another problem with the new hold person is that it somewhat weakens the slippery mind rogue class ability.

It will give the rogue another save one round later. This, of course, is in addition to all the other saves you get.

Example:
Cleric (Init 12) casts hold person to Rogue (Init 10). Let's consider she has a streak of bad luck.

@init:

12 - Rogue gets her 1st save (the usual one)
10 - As a full-round action, the rogue gets another save (the one-per-round save from hold person)
...
12 - Rogue gets her 2nd save (from slippery mind)
10 - As a full-round action, the rogue gets another save (the one-per-round save from hold person)
...
10 - As a full-round action, the rogue gets another save (the one-per-round save from hold person)
...

She still has that one extra chance. Plus, there are plenty of other spells that won't necessarily allow extra saves, like charm or dominate and suggestion.