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D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
[3.5] Archer changes
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<blockquote data-quote="Storm Raven" data-source="post: 848991" data-attributes="member: 307"><p></p><p></p><p>Many melee fighters have high Dexterity, and nothing keeps them from using things like Gloves of Dexterity. The biggest bonus with heavier armor is that even when he is denied his Dexterity bonus, the heavier armor wearer still has a large proportion of his AC available. The Dexterity based fighter is vulnerable under those circumstances.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A fighter based character getting in a one-on-one duel against a high level arcane caster is probably dead meat no matter what tactic he chooses. High level casters have too many options in a one-on-one encounter for an individual fighter to be able to keep up.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Heavier armor, and possibly a heavy shield allow the melee combatant to retain his AC at a high level evn while flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus. To achieve this as a lightly armored fighter, you have to use a couple levels to get rogue levels or something comaprable. (Heck, a Tower Shield will negate virtually all of the archer's ranged ability as the melee combatant closes).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It can, but the melee combatant is usually better in a grapple than the archer, since he is designed for close combat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wrong. The archer does not get his Dexterity bonus when opposing the disarm attempt, he's using the bow as a melee weapon, meaning he has to use Strength. He is nonproficient with the bow as a melee weapon, meaning he gets a -4 nonproficiency penalty on the opposed roll. He also can't use his ranged feats (like Point Blank Shot, or Weapon Focus), or his magical items like Bracers of Archery, since those apply to using the bow as a ranged weapon. He doesn't get the two handed bonus, because he is holding the bow in one hand.</p><p></p><p>Basically, on the opposed roll, the archer gets his BAB, his Strength bonus, and the Large weapon bonus. Against, for example, a greatsword or glaive wielder, he is at a huge disadvantage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And the archer's opposed <em>melee</em> attack roll is awful, making him especially vulnerable to having his weapon sundered.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem is that you don't need to be a sunder focused character to hack a bow apart. Given the lack of AoO that your sunder attempt will draw, the weakness of the archer's opposed roll in melee, and the flimsiness of the bow, to sunder a bow you don't <em>need</em> Power Attack, Sunder, and Improved Sunder to make your sunder attack effective as you do against a melee weapon armed individual.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Umm, wrong. Read the rules please.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nah, it is mediocre at best. The feat prerequisites are all over the place, and the benefits are too modest. Several other PrCs are a lot better. Master of Chains, Tempest (negating the penalties for two weapon fighting makes it quite effective), Frenzied Berserker and so on.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>He can, at a cost of BAB, hit points, and the fact that he would be tied to light armor to use many of his abilites as a rogue. It makes him a less effective fighter. (Note that losing BAB makes him even <em>more</em> vulnerable to disarms and sunders).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Um, their psionic powers. Did you miss that? Just the illusory wall power makes the archer's job impossible as it can grant total cover.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A speed of 60 can close lots of distance. Your archer needs to be more than 105 feet away to avoid retaliation. Do your interior combats frequently take place in areas where you have a 105 foot range unobstructed view?</p><p></p><p>And so on. The problem is that most encounters don't occur in arenas where an archer can set up a hundred feet away and plink. Most adventurers are inside rooms, in the forest or woods, in swamps, at night, or otherwise in situations where an archer is close enough to easily get with even a modest ranged retaliation.</p><p></p><p>Besides, many opponents at high level should be other characters, and they usually have effective ranged attacks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The first round of combat is rarely "critical". It is not nearly as critical as you seem to think.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You have been assuming lots of extra equipment: bracers of archery, an extra +4 weapon, Gautnlets of Dexterity and a Belt of Strength, plus a periapt of Wisdom (or 5th level spell slots to replicate these) and so on. That's a lot of extra equipment added to the archer.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Add a few levels of barbarian (as any self-respecting half-orc would) and rage a couple times per day, that bumps you up to 38. If the PC started with a base of 20 (not that unusual in a point buy situation, for example), he maxes out at 20th level at a 40 Strength.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Most of those creatures should have a fair amount of equipment as treasure, many of them will have Fortitifcation armor or bracers (a very smart move for a high level creature).</p><p></p><p>Of course, many of the classic opponents for high level parties are entirely immune to sneak attack damage: liches, vampiric wizards and so on.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Once again, adding resources to buff up the archer. Tilting the scales by adding a bunch of powerful magic items and spells to the archer doesn't prove the <em>archer</em> is better, it proves that he has better equipment and more buffs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Monsters should have access to Greater Magic Weapon about as much as characters. Otherwise you are just DMing poorly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Umm, no. An archer is <em>easy</em> to disarm.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Um, no. The archer has an inferior AC when grappled, since he loses his Dexterity bonus, making him vulenrable to being attacks by the grappler's allies.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Storm Raven, post: 848991, member: 307"] [B][/b] Many melee fighters have high Dexterity, and nothing keeps them from using things like Gloves of Dexterity. The biggest bonus with heavier armor is that even when he is denied his Dexterity bonus, the heavier armor wearer still has a large proportion of his AC available. The Dexterity based fighter is vulnerable under those circumstances. A fighter based character getting in a one-on-one duel against a high level arcane caster is probably dead meat no matter what tactic he chooses. High level casters have too many options in a one-on-one encounter for an individual fighter to be able to keep up. Heavier armor, and possibly a heavy shield allow the melee combatant to retain his AC at a high level evn while flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus. To achieve this as a lightly armored fighter, you have to use a couple levels to get rogue levels or something comaprable. (Heck, a Tower Shield will negate virtually all of the archer's ranged ability as the melee combatant closes). [b][/b] It can, but the melee combatant is usually better in a grapple than the archer, since he is designed for close combat. Wrong. The archer does not get his Dexterity bonus when opposing the disarm attempt, he's using the bow as a melee weapon, meaning he has to use Strength. He is nonproficient with the bow as a melee weapon, meaning he gets a -4 nonproficiency penalty on the opposed roll. He also can't use his ranged feats (like Point Blank Shot, or Weapon Focus), or his magical items like Bracers of Archery, since those apply to using the bow as a ranged weapon. He doesn't get the two handed bonus, because he is holding the bow in one hand. Basically, on the opposed roll, the archer gets his BAB, his Strength bonus, and the Large weapon bonus. Against, for example, a greatsword or glaive wielder, he is at a huge disadvantage. And the archer's opposed [i]melee[/i] attack roll is awful, making him especially vulnerable to having his weapon sundered. The problem is that you don't need to be a sunder focused character to hack a bow apart. Given the lack of AoO that your sunder attempt will draw, the weakness of the archer's opposed roll in melee, and the flimsiness of the bow, to sunder a bow you don't [i]need[/i] Power Attack, Sunder, and Improved Sunder to make your sunder attack effective as you do against a melee weapon armed individual. Umm, wrong. Read the rules please. Nah, it is mediocre at best. The feat prerequisites are all over the place, and the benefits are too modest. Several other PrCs are a lot better. Master of Chains, Tempest (negating the penalties for two weapon fighting makes it quite effective), Frenzied Berserker and so on. He can, at a cost of BAB, hit points, and the fact that he would be tied to light armor to use many of his abilites as a rogue. It makes him a less effective fighter. (Note that losing BAB makes him even [i]more[/i] vulnerable to disarms and sunders). [b][/b] Um, their psionic powers. Did you miss that? Just the illusory wall power makes the archer's job impossible as it can grant total cover. [b][/b] A speed of 60 can close lots of distance. Your archer needs to be more than 105 feet away to avoid retaliation. Do your interior combats frequently take place in areas where you have a 105 foot range unobstructed view? And so on. The problem is that most encounters don't occur in arenas where an archer can set up a hundred feet away and plink. Most adventurers are inside rooms, in the forest or woods, in swamps, at night, or otherwise in situations where an archer is close enough to easily get with even a modest ranged retaliation. Besides, many opponents at high level should be other characters, and they usually have effective ranged attacks. The first round of combat is rarely "critical". It is not nearly as critical as you seem to think. You have been assuming lots of extra equipment: bracers of archery, an extra +4 weapon, Gautnlets of Dexterity and a Belt of Strength, plus a periapt of Wisdom (or 5th level spell slots to replicate these) and so on. That's a lot of extra equipment added to the archer. Add a few levels of barbarian (as any self-respecting half-orc would) and rage a couple times per day, that bumps you up to 38. If the PC started with a base of 20 (not that unusual in a point buy situation, for example), he maxes out at 20th level at a 40 Strength. Most of those creatures should have a fair amount of equipment as treasure, many of them will have Fortitifcation armor or bracers (a very smart move for a high level creature). Of course, many of the classic opponents for high level parties are entirely immune to sneak attack damage: liches, vampiric wizards and so on. Once again, adding resources to buff up the archer. Tilting the scales by adding a bunch of powerful magic items and spells to the archer doesn't prove the [i]archer[/i] is better, it proves that he has better equipment and more buffs. Monsters should have access to Greater Magic Weapon about as much as characters. Otherwise you are just DMing poorly. Umm, no. An archer is [i]easy[/i] to disarm. Um, no. The archer has an inferior AC when grappled, since he loses his Dexterity bonus, making him vulenrable to being attacks by the grappler's allies. [/QUOTE]
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