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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 851574" data-attributes="member: 2486">I think that consistently assuming that the barbarian has four points higher Str is probably slightly misleading.  Since your meleeist is primarily going to be taking levels of fighter, and you imply that the fighter will likely only take around three levels of barbarian, it is slightly disingenuous to constantly assume that he is going to be raging.  Nevertheless, you still cannot rebut that the archer is going to have a significantly higher Dex, by around 8-12 points by top level than the meleeist. That's also distinctly arguable.  The Tempest which you seem to be so fond of is entirely dependent on lots of little hits.  Within 30', a 12th level archer wielding +4 bow, +4 arrow, mighty 18 with Point-Blank Shot, Bracers of Archery and Weapon Specialisation is going to be dealing d8+16, irrespective of elemental damage and sneak attack.  The fighter with strength 26 (since in most encounters he will *not* be raging, given he only gets one or two per day), a +4 2h weapon and Weapon Spec is dealing 2d6+18.  That's only about a 20% difference in damage per hit, which is hardly a huge amount, especially given that the archer is getting more attacks and better to-hit bonuses. Something of a misrepresentation I feel.  I claimed that against a wizard, the archer stands a better chance than the meleeist.  Against a relatively poor or even mediocrely prepared wizard, the archer stands a reasonable chance to kill him; the meleeist has a very poor chance unless he uses Power Critical (which, again, is only once per day).  On balance, therefore, the archer fares better than the meleeist against wizards.  This does not mean that the archer will always win- it merely means he is more likely to win than a meleeist. Precasting can be over-rated, particularly at the higher levels, and particularly against NPCs.  In most adventures, the PCs are the protagonists (i.e. attacking).  Given the proliferation of strategic spells (vis-a-vis tactical spells) such as teleport and scrying by the mid- to high-levels, a party of PCs can strike at enemy wizards who are not that well-prepared.  In this situation, the wizard does have to erect defenses, but if the archer can kill him before he has the chance, that's a huge benefit.  In dungeons, as well, many NPCs will not be that well-prepared.  Indeed, though this is a case of campaign style, I would argue that more often than not defending NPCs are not well-prepared for a well-planned PC attack.  Of course, if the NPCs are attacking, they may well  have defenses ready, but in this scenario, the meleeist is equally, if not more useless than the archer.   Actually, having looked at the numbers, I gave an *underestimate* for the archer's damage.  The archer inflicts d8+8(magic)+4(str)+2d6(elemental)+2d6(holy)=30.5 damage per hit.  Neither did I assume all four attacks hit.  Three attacks hitting does over ninety points of damage, so I even adjusted this slightly downwards (to 2 and 2/3 attacks hitting).  Given that the archer has around +6 to hit over the meleeist (+4 magic, +2 bracers), even his third attack with rapid shot is only at one point less than the fighter's primary. Not at all.  Average damage per hit: d8+8(magic)+4(str)+2(WS)+1(PBS)+1(bracers)+4d6(sneak)+4d6(elements, holy)=49.5 damage/hit.  Given that point-blank shot to-hit bonus has kicked in, the tertiary attack of the archer will be at least on a par with the meleeist's primary.  With Zen Archery, the archer's *fourth* attack is roughly on par with the meleeist's primary.  I assume that between three and four attacks hit, for roughly 180 damage.  Given that with Zen Archery the meleeist's primary attack is at a bonus between the archer's third and fourth attacks, and given that you assume he hits, this assumption is probably reasonable. Yep, sorry about that.  I was just demonstrating the amount of damage that the archer could dish out.  Remove barbarians from the list.  Every other class taking 180 damage, or the rogue taking 125 damage, will go down.  The barbarian, alone of the eleven classes, may survive a barrage. Much more efficient are two +3 weapons.  These only cost 36,000.  That's the great thing about bow/arrow stacking. Of course!  Since you made your meleeist a half-orc with base 20 Str, I'm making my archer an elf with base 20 Dex.  Add three for ability increases, buy the nice wizard a Pearl of Power II and ask him to cast Cat's Grace (average +3.5 pts).  Total: 26.5 Dex. No.  I gave him 36,000gp for weapons, using the bow/arrow stacking manoeuvre (above).  He bought the wizard a Pearl of Power for his Dex buffs, weighing in at 4,000; and did indeed buy his Bracers of Archery at 5,100.  Of a total wealth of 88,000, he's spent roughly half (45,100), plenty enough left over for a +3 cloak of resistance (9,000), a +2 ring of protection (8,000), a +2 amulet of natural armour (8,000), another Pearl of Power II so the wizard will also cast Bull's Strength (4,000), a +2 mithril shirt (5,000), a +2 mithril buckler (5,000),  a melee weapon (2,000) and some potions (2,000).  Now break down the meleeist's spending. Now let's break down *your* spending.  The +1 mithril full plate of nimbleness sets you back 19,000 (I don't have MaOF but think nimbleness adds +2 for cost), the Gloves of Dex 16,000 (though I'll be generous and assume you go the Pearl of Power route for 4,000).  Your prized Girdle of Giant Strength is most efficient with a Pearl of Power IV/empowered BS (16,000).  Your amulet and ring will set you back 36,000 between them leaving you with 10,000, limiting you to a single elemental weapon, and no heavy fortification (incidentally, the +1 heavy fortification nimbleness armour is a +8 armour effectively, so with the base cost of mithril full plate this alone takes out 75,000). Perhaps, but your meleeist always seems to be using a falchion or greatsword.  Neither the Tempest nor the Master of Chains is a PrC for a falchion or greatsword wielder.  The Weapon Master, by contrast, is. Unless he has Quick Draw, auto-switching melee weapons is not viable.  Moreover, the tempest/master of chains is unlikely to invest in a decent Greatsword (and will therefore not be able to sunder due to it being of lower + value than the bow) and will certainly be second rate with it- the Tempest may well go for the Finesse route, and the Master of Chains, even if he goes for Strength, will not have any feats soaked into the greatsword or falchion. My point was this: the meleeist is just as easy to neutralise with spells.  Grease, Entangle, Web, Fire Shield, Wall of Fire, Repulsion etc. can make life extremely troublesome for the meleeist without hurting the archer significantly (though Entangle and Web would cause some problems). First twenty creatures in the MM of CRs 6-15: aboleth (possibly due to enslavement), animated object (no), elder arrowhawk (no), athach (no), behir (no), beholder (yes), belker (no), bodak (no), bulette (no), four celestials (yes), chaos beast(no), chimera (no), chuul (no), couatl (yes), delver (no), succubus (yes), bebilith (probably not).  About six or seven out of twenty- hardly a majority.Personally, I think that bandying around theory can go on for ever.  Far more useful is to go for worked examples.  I'll build a 12th level archer, you build a 12th level meleeist- be sensible, this isn't an exercise in min/maxing.Ground Rules:Core Rules and WotC splatbooks (no S&S, no FRCS, no OA etc.)30-point buy12th levelI'll build mine a bit later- hope to hear from you soon.</blockquote>

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