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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 852005" data-attributes="member: 2486">Storm Raven has been talking about a fighter with three levels of barbarian as his stock meleeist.  This means that he can rage *1* time per day.  One =/= several.  Nor is it right to assume that this one time lasts all day. Ignoring the fact that the tempest cannot use his advantages with a double weapon, doubleswords (surely two-bladed swords?) don't add 1.5x Str bonus.  They work as per normal two-weapon fighting- adding Str bonus for one hand and Str bonus/2 for the other, so d8+14 for one half and d8+10 for the other.  That's ignoring the fact that the 12th level fighter cannot afford a double-bladed +5 weapon (let alone a +6 Belt as well) and further ignoring the fact that GMW only does +4 at this point. Ignoring the fact that for bows and arrows, stacking elemental damage is a far more efficient method of boosting damage.  This also ignores Weapon Specialisation, PBS, sneak attack, Bracers of Archery etc. within 30'. We've discussed sunder ad nauseam, and I readily conceded that in a one-on-one, if the archer loses initiative and the meleeist is within charge range, the meleeist will probably win. What- whilst the wizard does absolutely nothing?  The wizard can fly over the cover and rain down death, or go for aerial blast spells (ie. detonate fireball just over fighter's head), buff himself, summon monsters, ready defenses, disintegrate the cover, cast burst spells behind the fighter (confusion?) etc. etc. Yep.  The 12th level wizard probably doesn't. Ignoring the fact that the 12th level wiz can't cast Chain Contingency, and may not get a free action.As I have said before over and over, a well-prepared wizard is basically invincible at high levels.  But the archer still stands a much better chance than the meleeist, even if the meleeist is standing behind a tower shield pretending the wizard can't do anything. Reasonable enough.  Protection from Elements, Stoneskin, Obscuring Mist and all the other anti-archer type spells mentioned aren't going to help in this respect.  The stat-boosting spells I have already accounted for (by e.g. giving the wiz 18 Con). You are kidding, right?  Taking a -4 penalty on both hands really isn't worthwhile.  Going for two shortswords and Power Attacking four points is better by 2.5 points per hit (and with a tempest, that's a lot of hits) for equivalent amounts of penalty.  Given that Weapon Finesse is a tempest prereq, using almost anything other than two shortswords (to optimise on Finesse, Focus and Specialisation, and since it's a light weapon) makes you a fool. So that'd be two shortswords (the sensible Tempest), the dual-falchion Tempest of Doom(TM), the spiked chain and the greatsword?  How many hands do you have? Rogues only take 125 points instead of the full 180, as I said (though this may be adjusted upwards as they generally have worse ACs than fighters), but this is still able to kill a 12th level rogue of average rolls with 18 Con.  Casters are unlikely to want to multiclass as it delays spell progression, paladins are unlikely to take levels of rogue and cannot take barbarian; monks likewise; bards have too few hit points to survive with the reduced 125.  The fighter/barbarian, fighter/rogue, ranger/barbarian or ranger/rogue build are the only common multiclassing builds likely to survive the barrage, and even some of these are iffy: the fighter/rogue, assuming nine levels of fighter and three of rogue needs a Con of 20 or better to survive and is likely to be soaking up points in Str and Dex.  The ranger/rogue has the same predicament. Dependent on campaign style.  We could argue this forever without coming to a solution one way or the other.  For the purposes of the build, detailed below, I'll go by your parameters and mainly have classed and/or intelligent opponents. What we'll do is this.  Make the build (not too min/max please!) and assume that the party wizard and party cleric are happy to each give one second level buff and one third level buff, for a total of two second and two third.  Anything over and above needs to soaked up by buying Pearls of Power.  Equipment will be standard (DMG) for a 12th level PC.The scenarios will be thus: the prospective characters will first go toe-to-toe with each other.  They will then go against a 12th level cleric, 12th level rogue, 12th level wizard and 12th level barbarian (all from DMG).  They then go against a CR 12 aberration (frost worm), CR 12 dragon (adult green) and CR 12 undead (10th vampire fighter).  Based on the results of the eight fights, it should be apparent which is the better in combat.  Foes with magic can be assumed to use buffs so long as they last 12 hours or more (as per Pax's guidelines).  Subsidiary benefits should also be taken into account, since I am intending to multiclass into rogue.Do you accept that this is a fair and balanced representation of 12th level opponents?  Then let the game begin...</blockquote>

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