D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Binder: what's Tenebrous's Darkvision range?

[GodOfCheese]

Binding the Tenebrous vestige grants the practitioner the ability to see in Deeper Darkness, similar to what certain fiends get. But the Tome of Magic doesn't give a range. Does anyone know this one?

 

[Persiflage]

See in Darkness:You can see perfectly through darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell (or your
deeper darkness ability).

Given the lack of any other parameters, I'd say you just ignore darkness. You can "see perfectly", which - as far as I can tell - means you can see as though you were in "normal" light conditions (i.e. bright light) at all times. This ability doesn't appear to be darkvision: darkvision specifies a range. I reckon you just get to "see" in any kind of darkness, full stop, as though it were not dark.

I wonder if this means you get to see in colour in the dark?

 

[radmod]

Once again, I agree with Parsiflage. Go figure.
I don't see anything that says anything but that you can see in darkness. So I would presume it's just like normal vision.
I guess that would mean you get to see colour.

Man, it's just weird trying to wrap one's head around the potential physics of it.

 

[GodOfCheese]

I agree that the RAW give it effectively unlimited range.

Am I missing something, or does this seem highly unbalanced to anyone else? There's no comparable ability (with unlimited range) anywhere else that I'm aware of, and it doesn't make a lot of sense that the binder would have better darkvision than, say, the Shadowcaster.

 

[Dross]

I agree that the RAW give it effectively unlimited range.

Am I missing something, or does this seem highly unbalanced to anyone else? There's no comparable ability (with unlimited range) anywhere else that I'm aware of, and it doesn't make a lot of sense that the binder would have better darkvision than, say, the Shadowcaster.

We don't use the book but:

That is my feeling, RAW but , not in my game. I'd probably max it out at 90'.

 

[Persiflage]

Once again, I agree with Parsiflage. Go figure.

Heheh. Yeah

I agree that the RAW give it effectively unlimited range.

Am I missing something, or does this seem highly unbalanced to anyone else? There's no comparable ability (with unlimited range) anywhere else that I'm aware of... [schnnnnnnip!]

See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.

It's a diabolic trait: I guess they're playing up the angsty warlocks-as-infernally-tainted thing.

 

[Dandu]

Am I missing something, or does this seem highly unbalanced to anyone else?

Ha, you call that unbalanced?

There's no comparable ability (with unlimited range) anywhere else that I'm aware of, and it doesn't make a lot of sense that the binder would have better darkvision than, say, the Shadowcaster.

It makes perfect sense when you consider that the Binder is a competently designed class while the Shadowcaster is not.

 

[GodOfCheese]

Revisiting this...

[/B]
Ha, you call that unbalanced?

AFAICT Darkvision always has a limit, which makes this suspicious (not necessarily unbalanced). It occurred to me to do an ad-hoc search of the SRD for darkvision ranges above 60. Here's what I found:

"darkvision 60" site:d20srd.org more:monsters = 172 hits
darkvision "darkvision out to 60 " site:d20srd.org more:monsters = 33 hits
"darkvision 90" site:d20srd.org more:monsters = 4 hits
darkvision "darkvision out to 90 " site:d20srd.org more:monsters = 2 hits
"darkvision 120" site:d20srd.org more:monsters = 2 hits
darkvision "darkvision out to 120" site:d20srd.org more:monsters = 6 hits

seeing a pattern here? Fast-forward:

darkvision -"darkvision 60 ft" -"darkvision 60ft" -"darkvision 90 ft" -"darkvision 120ft" -"darkvision out to 60" more:monsters

...breaks google. Weeding through the false-positives though, it looks like there are a grand total of three (Devastation Vermin, Thorciasid, and Primal Elementals), and each is epic.

It gets more interesting (to me at least). Devils can see in deeper darkness, and that's where Tenebrous's power comes from. The specific quote:

See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.

...but each Devil in the SRD has explicit "darkvision 60" down in the Special Qualities section (confirmed on Hamatula, Barbazu, Osyluth, Kyton, Erinyes, Bezikira, Cornugon, Gelugon, Imp, Lemure, and even the Pit Fiend).

My read here is that if the authors intended for the Tenebrous vestige to grant the first (AFAICT) instance of unlimited-range darkvision, they probably would have said so explicitly.

That leaves the question of how far it's supposed to see. 60' seems like the easy answer, but I'm not sure it's the correct one. Tenebrous is not a low-level vestige. Placing it akin to a spell-level, this seems higher than the Wiz2 Darkvision spell (60), so it should probably be 90 or 120...

 

[Dross]

...but each Devil in the SRD has explicit "darkvision 60" down in the Special Qualities section (confirmed on Hamatula, Barbazu, Osyluth, Kyton, Erinyes, Bezikira, Cornugon, Gelugon, Imp, Lemure, and even the Pit Fiend).

My read here is that if the authors intended for the Tenebrous vestige to grant the first (AFAICT) instance of unlimited-range darkvision, they probably would have said so explicitly.

That leaves the question of how far it's supposed to see. 60' seems like the easy answer, but I'm not sure it's the correct one. Tenebrous is not a low-level vestige. Placing it akin to a spell-level, this seems higher than the Wiz2 Darkvision spell (60), so it should probably be 90 or 120...

That argument makes me think of two possibilities:
A: You need darkvision for TB to work & it goes to your darkvision range or
B: The effect only works in areas of deeper darkness, even if it outside the range of darkvision or you don't have darkvision. Making a human blind in the dark but not Deeper Darkness . I'd liken it to torchlight at night, you can see what is in the light but not anything outside it.

I can't see A being right as there is no apparent reference within the ability's description requiring darkvision.
As for B.... it feels RAW right, but maybe I'm missing something important in the description (I don't have the book) because that really seems off to me.

 

[Persiflage]

AFAICT Darkvision always has a limit, which makes this suspicious (not necessarily unbalanced).

Darkvision always has a limit. The special quality under discussion is see in darkness, however, which isn't darkvision and NEVER has a limit. See In Darkness is NOT darkvision because:

1) See In Darkness works in magical darkness, whilst darkvision does not.

Far more importantly:

2) See in darkness is a supernatural special quality, whilst darkvision is an extraordinary one.

The Tenebrous vestige grants the see in darkness ability, NOT darkvision.

[snipped stuff about darkvision]

It gets more interesting (to me at least). Devils can see in deeper darkness, and that's where Tenebrous's power comes from.

...but each Devil in the SRD has explicit "darkvision 60" down in the Special Qualities section (confirmed on Hamatula, Barbazu, Osyluth, Kyton, Erinyes, Bezikira, Cornugon, Gelugon, Imp, Lemure, and even the Pit Fiend).

Devils can see in deeper darkness because they have the see in darkness special quality, not because they have darkvision. The former quality renders the latter (MOSTLY) redundant.

My read here is that if the authors intended for the Tenebrous vestige to grant the first (AFAICT) instance of unlimited-range darkvision, they probably would have said so explicitly.

But they're doing nothing of the sort. They're giving access to the see in darkness ability, which has no limit. It is not darkvision, which does. It has nothing to do with darkvision, despite the fact that they have a significant overlap. A creature can have one without the other. If they have both, darkvision is no longer significant under most circumstances.

That leaves the question of how far it's supposed to see. 60' seems like the easy answer, but I'm not sure it's the correct one. Tenebrous is not a low-level vestige. Placing it akin to a spell-level, this seems higher than the Wiz2 Darkvision spell (60), so it should probably be 90 or 120...

There is no limit to vision range listed for the see in darkness special quality. There is for darkvision.

That argument makes me think of two possibilities:
A: You need darkvision for TB to work & it goes to your darkvision range or
B: The effect only works in areas of deeper darkness, even if it outside the range of darkvision or you don't have darkvision. Making a human blind in the dark but not Deeper Darkness . I'd liken it to torchlight at night, you can see what is in the light but not anything outside it.

I'm afraid neither of your explanations are correct: the reason that all devils have darkvision listed - even though it's redundant - is because they are outsiders. Outsiders have darkvision.

Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

• Darkvision out to 60 feet.

Ergo, darkvision is listed even though most of the time it doesn't matter because see in darkness is the better ability. However, there are circumstances in which either one can be applicable whilst the other is not.

It is important to list both (if they have both) because see in darkness - being a supernatural ability - will not function in an antimagic area, whilst darkvision - being an extraordinary ability - will. It is also important because certain spells, feats and class abilities based off polymorph will give you one type of ability but not the other.

Hope that clears it up