D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Binder: what's Tenebrous's Darkvision range?

[GodOfCheese]

That argument makes me think of two possibilities:
A: You need darkvision for TB to work & it goes to your darkvision range or
B: The effect only works in areas of deeper darkness, even if it outside the range of darkvision or you don't have darkvision. Making a human blind in the dark but not Deeper Darkness . I'd liken it to torchlight at night, you can see what is in the light but not anything outside it.

I can't see A being right as there is no apparent reference within the ability's description requiring darkvision.
As for B.... it feels RAW right, but maybe I'm missing something important in the description (I don't have the book) because that really seems off to me.

AFAICT the class description is lacking something-- either a limit to the visual range, the explicit denial of such a limit, or the addition of "Darkvision __". To that end, 'A' makes sense to me, because it suggests the authors omitted "Darkvision __".

Plus, the wording says "in darkness of any kind, even deeper darkness", which implies non-magical darkness.

This would be easier if the See In Darkness ability were a standard special quality, indexed at the end of the book. :-(

Darkvision always has a limit. The special quality under discussion is see in darkness, however, which isn't darkvision and NEVER has a limit.

The word "NEVER" is a bit overblown here given that there aren't many instances of "see in darkness". I wish I had my Monster Manuals with me to look for others, but from my desk I have only the SRD. Can someone point me to another instance of See In Darkness for comparison? Or is it specific to Devils?

See In Darkness is NOT darkvision because:

1) See In Darkness works in magical darkness, whilst darkvision does not.

Far more importantly:

2) See in darkness is a supernatural special quality, whilst darkvision is an extraordinary one.

The Tenebrous vestige grants the see in darkness ability, NOT darkvision.

I noticed that too, which I found odd.

Devils can see in deeper darkness because they have the see in darkness special quality, not because they have darkvision. The former quality renders the latter (MOSTLY) redundant.
[...]

They're giving access to the see in darkness ability, which has no limit.

I agree that there's no specific assertion about limits to See in Darkness, but I'm not convinced that Devils have unlimited visual range in darkness (Deeper or otherwise). This all seems like it boils down to what "perfectly" means.

My previous post about the census on who-has-what-level-of-darkvision applies. If the authors had intended to let Devils see infinitely far in the dark, I'd have expected them to be more explicit about it.

I'm afraid neither of your explanations are correct: the reason that all devils have darkvision listed - even though it's redundant - is because they are outsiders. Outsiders have darkvision.

Ergo, darkvision is listed even though most of the time it doesn't matter because see in darkness is the better ability. However, there are circumstances in which either one can be applicable whilst the other is not.

It is important to list both (if they have both) because see in darkness - being a supernatural ability - will not function in an antimagic area, whilst darkvision - being an extraordinary ability - will. It is also important because certain spells, feats and class abilities based off polymorph will give you one type of ability but not the other.

Hope that clears it up

Regardless of which way I jump on this, it DOES explain why Devils have both, and suggests some interesting tactics...

 

[Persiflage]

All varieties of Quori have See in Darkness, and it's described exactly the same way as for Devils. So does anything with the Monster of Legend template, which grants the ability to the base creature. None of the entries describe a limit to vision range using the ability. The Quori and MoL entries don't list darkvision separately, but there's no need: they're both Outsiders and will thus have the standard darkvision for the type as well as the See in Darkness ability.

The authors have been completely clear. I can't think of a statement less ambiguous than "can see perfectly in darkness". Creatures with this ability can see perfectly in darkness. As though it were not dark.

 

[krupintupple]

The authors have been completely clear. I can't think of a statement less ambiguous than "can see perfectly in darkness". Creatures with this ability can see perfectly in darkness. As though it were not dark.

at the risk of stepping onto an active landmine - i haven't closely read this thread - why not just do the following:

**************************
1. coin flip!
2a. heads - binder darkvision is 120'
2b. tails - binder darkvision is like devils, so darkness doesn't effect them.
3. profit!

 

[Dandu]

The authors have been completely clear. I can't think of a statement less ambiguous than "can see perfectly in darkness". Creatures with this ability can see perfectly in darkness. As though it were not dark.

It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

 

[krupintupple]

It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

scandalous!

 

[GodOfCheese]

an explanation...

at the risk of stepping onto an active landmine - i haven't closely read this thread - why not just do the following:

**************************
1. coin flip!
2a. heads - binder darkvision is 120'
2b. tails - binder darkvision is like devils, so darkness doesn't effect them.
3. profit!

Heh. Mostly because I'm clearly missing something about how the rules work in this instance. I knew Devils could see in Deeper Darkness, but I wasn't aware that they effectively had unlimited-range darkvision to go with it.

My ruling depends, as I said, on what "perfectly" means. "See perfectly in darkness of any kind" could be defensibly interpreted as any of the following, possibly in combination:

1. Sees infinitely far in darkness
2. is unaffected by the magical anti-darkvision constraints of (Deeper) Darkness -- this one is confirmed by the text that follows.
3. sees through illusions as long as they are in darkness
4. automatically succeeds at any Spot or Search check made in darkness
5. does not suffer range penalties (-1 per 10') for Spot checks
6. suffers no penalties from concealment, fog, or invisibility under cover of darkness

This may seem rules-lawyerly, but that's why I don't perceive this as a slam-dunk. The word "perfect" lacks context here, especially compared to many of the other descriptions in the SRD, which makes this very much open to interpretation.

So am I missing something here? Are there other explicit mentions in the literature of devils being able to see for miles in pitch darkness? Perhaps in tactics ("Knowing that most creatures can't see more than 60' or 120' in darkness, the Blah Devil will camp out 125' away and use ranged weaponry to take out its enemies...", etc)?