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<blockquote data-quote="Dedekind" data-source="post: 4431492" data-attributes="member: 63968">I don't recall seeing a thread that mathematically deals with the breakdown.&nbsp; &nbsp;Intuitively, though, saves mechanically become a problem with the standard progression.&nbsp; &nbsp;First, &quot;good&quot; saves progress at a faster rate than &quot;bad&quot; saves.&nbsp; The absolute difference between good saves and bad saves does not stay the same through the levels.&nbsp; At first level, the probability of success for a good save is 10% (+2) higher than a bad save.&nbsp; At 20th level, the probability of success for a good save is 30% (+6) higher than a bad save.&nbsp; Hence, a saving throw targeting your worse save becomes a much greater problem at levels where &quot;save or die&quot; effects are much more frequent.&nbsp;Second, good saves usually were modified by an ability score that was important for a class, will most likely be the one the player increased through the levels, and will most likely have the best buff from a magic item.&nbsp; So, the disparity between good scores and bad scores further increases the difference between good saves and bad saves.&nbsp;So, the complaint was usually: &quot;I either make my good saves with almost no chance of failure&quot; or &quot;I make my bad saves with almost no chance of success&quot;.&nbsp; &nbsp;4e seeks to address this by providing a constant progression with a static class modifier.&nbsp; Though ability scores and feats may change the save (defense) through time, the difference between good and bad saves stays relatively stable.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dedekind, post: 4431492, member: 63968"] I don't recall seeing a thread that mathematically deals with the breakdown. Intuitively, though, saves mechanically become a problem with the standard progression. First, "good" saves progress at a faster rate than "bad" saves. The absolute difference between good saves and bad saves does not stay the same through the levels. At first level, the probability of success for a good save is 10% (+2) higher than a bad save. At 20th level, the probability of success for a good save is 30% (+6) higher than a bad save. Hence, a saving throw targeting your worse save becomes a much greater problem at levels where "save or die" effects are much more frequent. Second, good saves usually were modified by an ability score that was important for a class, will most likely be the one the player increased through the levels, and will most likely have the best buff from a magic item. So, the disparity between good scores and bad scores further increases the difference between good saves and bad saves. So, the complaint was usually: "I either make my good saves with almost no chance of failure" or "I make my bad saves with almost no chance of success". 4e seeks to address this by providing a constant progression with a static class modifier. Though ability scores and feats may change the save (defense) through time, the difference between good and bad saves stays relatively stable. [/QUOTE]

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