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Message: <blockquote data-quote="c47" data-source="post: 4432037" data-attributes="member: 16048">Scry-Buff-Teleport is something you have to deal with a lot lower than "high" level. By about 12th this would become standard if within the scope of the quite limited spells. Likewise with any plan-X time infiltrations (Plan-X = characters in an extra-dimensional space while the scout gets you to where you're needed) are also probably being used. This is all normal for mid-to-high level DnD from previous editions. I think what the originator was getting at was what happens are epic levels or close to epic levels and why. Most of the topics have been covered. Fighters can hit everything, if they cannot hit it, no one can hit it.Arcane spells get though any spell resistances and with the no-save spells available can made any non-epic monsters redundant.Clerics can get back party members from near death to full health in a matter of rounds, in combat. Rogues cannot be seen by pretty much anyone else and can scout out anywhere without being detected.So to counter these effects there are epic monsters and epic encounters. Our group has been playing at this level for a few months now (about the 19th - 22nd levels) and are finding that epic monsters are leaps and bounds tougher than normal ones. Perhaps this has to be so considering my first points above. There is almost an groan around the table when we realize it is an epic monster because basically epic means: immune to spells, high enough AC that only a fully buffed fighter can hit it on his first strike, regen. or fast healing or both so if we don't kill it this time, the next time we encounter it it is back on full (no guerrilla tactics), immune to level drain, mind effects, probably flies (The Tarrasques only real weakness), moves faster than all bar the monk, several hundred if not thousand hit points and normally has some special power that is undefendable:- psychic wisdom drain, sonic fangs, mind extraction via phasing. Basically there is a massive leap from 20th to 21st monsters. Obviously we've only played the one campaign at this level so perhaps it is the adventure but we all (the players) felt that when we were 20th a tough monsters has ac 30 - 40. Suddenly at 21st they have 60+ and all other powers equally increased. I know this is still not answering the originators post but I thought I'd add my two pence. We've looked at epic spells and house ruled them out. They are either stupidly expensive or you have to convolute them so much it is silly. They do not fit into the game very well either. Epic feats are not "that" fantastic either. Very few are genuinely epic. Most could be in the base game from the start. One of our group stated that its like a superheroes game. I'm not so sure. Its been about 20 years since I last played a superheroes game (Champions/Gurps:Wildcards) so perhaps things have changed but I remember starting out quite wimpy compared to my DnD high level guys.We've had to make a few house rules regarding some spells and items: Astral Projection, Wish/Miracle, Rods of metamagic etc.Some comments on high level combat:-the actual rounds do take a little longer each time you go up as everyone has more they can do. Particularly the wizards and clerics. If anything the longest delays is not the combat but more the preparation time for the characters that prepare their spells. I don't mind this delay as I think it make the players really think about their spells. Its taken about three levels of 18th+ play but we're starting to get used to chucking the 9ths and 10ths around and see what works and what doesn't. What I will say is that regardless of how tough the monsters are, we are really enjoying the game. You can see for yourselves if you are happy to put up with our stories here:<a href="http://shokaster.com/roundrobin/viewforum.php?f=23" target="_blank">http://shokaster.com/roundrobin/viewforum.php?f=23</a></blockquote>

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