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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Krinkle" data-source="post: 1080675" data-attributes="member: 12788">I appreciate the logic of wanting the character to be able to take 20 in order to reflect them taking time and caution in choosing a hiding place. However, the "take 20" rule is the wrong mechanism to reflect this. You are looking for circumstance bouses:Player: I'm gonna hide and ambush when they walk by.DM: OKPlayer: I'll stay about 20' feet away.DM: That's a -2 for their Spot.Player: I'll look for a nice little ditch I can crouch inDM: That's a +2Player: Do I see a ditch with dense cover and lots o' shadows?DM: Sure, thats another +2Player: I'm gonna carefully remove some of the brush so I have good line of sight but make sure its shadowed so they have trouble seeing meDM: Another +2Player: Since I have time, I'll bend some braches of the tree where they'll round the corner so it obscures their vision as the come into the areaDM: +2Etc., Etc., Etc. SRD: Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding....Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. You can't hide twenty times until you get it right.You can't even "fail many times" while trying in any meaningful way.Beyond the legalese, it is not within the spirit of the take 20 rule. Imagine threading a needle, you keep trying you will get it right. Compare this to making a free throw. You might make it after 20 shots, buts thats twenty free throws, and spending two minutes staring at the net won't help for a single shot. (Taking a moment to collect your thoughts and carefully shoot does, i.e., Taking 10.)You can always make it easy and say "Since you are taking time to carefully hide I will you give you circumstance bonus of +x" if you don't want to roleplay the specific factors. This is better anyway because, as a DM, you can consider not just the time the characer spends but also their environment. On a barren hill with a single bush there's not much to be gained in spending 2 minutes carefully hiding behind the bush.</blockquote>

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