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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Krinkle" data-source="post: 1081851" data-attributes="member: 12788">Yes.And let me take this opportunity to apologize to Victorsim. I can be more direct than some find palatable , though only out of brevity, not out of impoliteness or disrespect. I am new to Enworld so please have pity. My spelling is awful (I would have said "atrocious" if I new how to spell it).  I still call Wizards "Magic-Users,"  I still wonder why people who play bards complain since at least they don't have to first achieve 5 levels of fighter, then become thieves, then begun clerical studies as Druids except that they "are actually bards under druidical tutelage." In short, I am a barbarian, but without Cleave. In my defense, it was not a Straw Man example. My point was that taking 20 represents trying an action 20 twenty times until it succeded. The example was appropriate and relevant.Anyway...This ain't Magic (or maybe it is, and I'm wrong, and sad.)The rules only have value when parsed by a DM within an actual game. I can see some reasons, based on semantics only, why one can argue that a character can take 20 on a Hide check. There are also some good reason why they can't,. All of these reasons have been explained by me, and smarter people than me, throughout this thread. I will only try to reiterate my original point. The rules regarding "Taking 20" are clear in their intent, though not clear in their precise application. Taking 20 is to be used in a situation when trying over and over will eventually lead to success. This would apply to threading a needle, escaping from some bonds, or searching for some loot in a chest. In short, a single discrete act results in a single discrete result. Every example in this thread of using Hide to take 20 somehow relates to carefully finding a good hiding place. This is absolutely not taking 20, and there is nothing within the rulebooks to make it so (i.e., this is not twenty separate acts but one careful act). One could argue that the rules don't expressly forbid a charater from hiding 20 times is a row in order to find a good spot. Fair enough, the DM caved to the arguments of a rules lawyer. This is wrong howver. If you are the type of DM to cave to rules lawer you best make sure he is trying 20 times to find a good hiding place (See my example "He goes behnd the bush. He comes out from the bush. He goes behind the bush. etc.") If the character is taking time, energy, and some careful study to find a single hiding place, the best hiding place, then give him a circumstance bonus based on taking 10. This way you are not arbitrarily giving him a +20 whatever the situation. You are giving a bonus a bonus based on, well, the circumstances.</blockquote>

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