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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Urbannen" data-source="post: 1085865" data-attributes="member: 7643">There are some general problems with the Search skill.  The idea that you can be within 10 feet of anything and make a Search check just doesn't make sense, since so many Search checks require tactile manipulation.  Going through a desk, a treasure chest, or the items on a dead body require tactile manipulation.  The game doesn't make a good enough distinction between Spot and Search.  No one's really address the fact that once hidden and unmoving, a character is in essence a hidden object.  You don't use Hide in order to determine the Search DC to find a hidden object, so why would you do so for an unmoving character?  The Hide skill specifically says that it is usually used with a move action, and waiting in one spot in order to ambush someone does not involve a move action.  Finding a spot to hide yourself is the same procedure you would use in order to hide a human-sized, flexible mannequin.  There needs to be a mechanic to determine how well you can hide an object, including yourself.  It doesn't make sense that you can find a secret door from 10 feet away with a visual Search check, but non-elves have no chance of noticing the same secret door casually, regardless of their Spot check.  Food for thought:1.  How do you determine what the Spot DC is for an item that is hidden but that has only partial cover or concealment?  2.  How do you determine what the Spot DC is for a living creature that is hidden and unmoving but that has only partial cover or concealment?  Hide apparently, even though this doesn't involve a move action.3.  How do you determine what the Search DC is for an item that is hidden but that has only partial cover or concealment?4.  How do you determine what the Search DC is for a living creature that is hidden and unmoving but that has only partial cover or concealment? In other words, why is a hidden unmoving living creature any different than a hidden corpse, but definition an object? 5.  How do you determine the Search DC for a living creature that has 100% cover or concealment?  Items hidden in a desk have both 100% cover and Search DCs, for example.  6.  How do you determine the Spot DC to notice hard-to-notice but visible objects from a distance?7.  Why can't you use Search to find obviously visible but hard-to-notice items from a distance when you are consciously looking for them?  8.  Why is Spot sometimes used only unconsciously but other times consciously?</blockquote>

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