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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stormrunner" data-source="post: 1101236" data-attributes="member: 13471">+20 CIRCUMSTANCE BONUS???? Holeeee @%#$^@.Let's stop and take a look at this, shall we?Say I'm a lvl1 rogue with a 16 Dex.  I've probably maxed out my Hide ranks, which gives me a Hide skill of 7 (4 ranks + 3 Dex) if I don't take any feats.I try to Hide.If I'm in a hurry, I roll normally, 1d20+7.  Min 8, max 27, average 17-18.  A first-level character with a 16 Wisdom and 4 ranks in Spot will see me about 50% of the time, which is as it should be, since our skills are equal.If I Take 10, I'm guaranteed a 17.  Not a good as I might get through luck, but it avoids the chance of a major screw-up.If the Dm lets me Take 20, I've got a guaranteed 27.  To have a 50% chance of seeing me, an observer needs a +17 Spot check (say, 13th level with an 18 Wisdom).  The first-level character from above will Spot me only on a natural 20, so he might as well have spent those skill points on something else.  This seems wrong.If the DM gives me a +20 circumstance bonus, then I'm rolling 1d20+27, minimum 28, maximum 47, average 37.  To have a 50-50 chance of spotting me, my foe needs a +27 Spot.  That's equivalent to a 17th level character with 22 Wisdom.  And I'm only first level!Allowing Take 20 on Hide makes Spot nearly useless.  Giving out +20 circumstance bonuses is flat-out broken.Take 10 on Hide? Sure, if you're not in a hurry.  Take 20? No.</blockquote>