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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 941108" data-attributes="member: 3146">Where has it been stated?  As far as I know, Piratecat was the original source of the rumor when he posted something like "the cost of skill boosting items has gone up considerably" and that he wouldn't be surprised if the cost of stat-boosting items went up too but he hadn't seen any indications of it. Far from a dramatic statement like some have made it out to be.In addition, there are good reasons considering the other 3.5 changes to think that they won't be altered. It would be pretty moronic for the designers of 3.5 to complain that people were substituting buff spells for items and then up the cost of items as well as reducing the utility of the buff spells. The primary reason they gave for nerfing the animal buff spells was to make people buy items. If items aren't affordable, they won't accomplish that.And even if the cost of stat boosting items has really gone up, the mass buff spells still aren't worthwhile as 6th level spells. In your standard 4 person party (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard), they will mean at most +15 damage on round 1 and +19 damage on subsequent rounds--assuming the rogue and cleric are in melee after it is cast, that the fighter has a two handed weapon, that everyone makes only full attack actions, and that nobody misses. On the other hand, even the nerfed 3.5e Haste spell is likely to give the same party +24 damage/round just between the fighter and the rogue (not including sneak attack damage in any calculations). A Summon Monster VI spell is (Celestial Dire Bear) is likely to deal a good 30+ points of damage or so per round on a full attack. A flame strike  (5th level spell) is likely to deal 38 points of damage per target on a failed save. And if there's one target, Harm will deal up to 110 points of damage (at 11th level) on a failed save. The only advantage it MIGHT have over those spells is duration but if it's being cast during combat it's got to justify it's casting time in that combat and it can't do that. And if it's being cast out of combat (which is unlikely if it is also 1 min/level), it's not doing anything that couldn't be done by a bunch of 2nd level spells (which, unlike 6th level ones, have little opportunity cost at level 11+)Mass Bull's Strength doesn't come close to any of those numbers in a 4 character party. Make it a 10 character party and give each of the characters full attack actions and two handed weapons and assume they never miss and it may start to stack up. That's nothing like your typical PC party though--more like an NPC ambush wagon. (And, even in that situation, mass buff spells still lose a matchup with 3.5e Haste.... and when a 6th level cleric spell is dramatically losing comparisons  to a 3rd level spell--even a wizard spell--it's time to wonder if it's really worth casting; Flame strike wouldn't be cast if it weren't in the same league as fireball).</blockquote>

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