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[3.5] Crit stacking?
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<blockquote data-quote="Anubis" data-source="post: 1005067" data-attributes="member: 2358"><p>Another thing I would like to point out about the greatsword and falchion is that they are both 2d4 damage weapons, whereas the greatsword is 2d6. That has a great effect on things.</p><p></p><p>For accuracy, we should compare the mercurial greatsword (2d6/x4 crit) and the greatsword (2d6/19-20/x2 crit).</p><p></p><p>By the way, Mike Sullivan, I forgot to thank you for explaining the formula. Like I said, my math is rusty at this point, but now I understand your numbers perfectly.</p><p></p><p>Here I will do the above. We will assume that the attacker attacks once at +10.</p><p></p><p>Mercurial Greatsword v. Greatsword</p><p></p><p><strong>Against AC 11</strong></p><p></p><p>Average damage is 7(0.95) because 1 always misses. The critical factor for the mercurial greatsword (x4) works out to be 0.05*3*0.950+1, or 1.1425 overall. The critical factor for the greatsword (19-20/x2) works out to be (0.10*1*0.95)+1, or 1.095 overall. (To get the base factor, you put one less than the actual critical multiplier in there because weapons always do x1 damage to start with.) Anyway, moving on . . .</p><p></p><p>1.1425(7+X) > 1.095(7+X)</p><p></p><p>7.9975+1.1425X > 7.665+1.095X</p><p></p><p>0.0475X > -0.3325</p><p></p><p>X > -7</p><p></p><p>Now looking at this, when damage is the same, the x4 multiplier wins hands-down over a 19-20/x2 multiplier. Now I must ask, what on earth is the point of these numbers? How do we see exactly what happens with the Keen and Improved Critical situations? I think perhaps we need to look at different numbers.</p><p></p><p>We'll use a keen rapier (fighter has improved critical and ki critical) and a normal keen rapier. This time, the purpose is to find out either how much more damage it gets to unbalance things OR show how much is actually lost in the revisions. Our fighters will have Str 18 and Dex 26, both have Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization, both weapons are also +5, and both will attack at +35/+30/+25/+20.</p><p></p><p>Keen Rapier (w/Improved Critical and Ki Critical) v. Keen Rapier</p><p></p><p><strong>Against AC 37</strong></p><p></p><p>For Fighter #1, the hit factors for the four hits, counting the critical factors (10-20/x2 each) are (0.55*1*0.95)+0.95, (0.55*1*0.7)+0.7, (0.55*1*0.45)+0.45, and (0.55*1*0.2)+0.2, or 1.4725/1.085/0.6975/0.31. Average damage is 14.5. That gives us the following average damage per round:</p><p></p><p>14.5(1.4725) + 14.5(1.085) + 14.5(0.6975) + 14.5(0.31) = 51.6925 damage per round</p><p></p><p>For Fighter #2, the hit factors for the four hits, counting the critical factors (15-20/x2 each) are (0.3*1*0.95)+0.95, (0.3*1*0.7)+0.7, (0.3*1*0.45)+0.45, and (0.3*1*0.2)+0.2, or 1.235/0.91/0.585/0.26. Average damage is 14.5. In fact, I just realized this formula can be shortened to [(0.3*1)(0.95+0.7+0.45+0.2)]+(0.95+0.7+0.45+0.2). That gives us the following average damage per round:</p><p></p><p>14.5(1.235) + 14.5(0.91) + 14.5(0.585) + 14.5(0.26) = 14.5(1.235+0.91+0.585+0.26) = 14.5(2.99) = 43.355 damage per round</p><p></p><p>So there you have it.</p><p></p><p>51.6925 v. 43.355</p><p></p><p>With Improved Critical and Ki Critical, a keen rapier does 19.23% more damage per round. This obviously mostly disproves my theory about high threat ranges causing balance issues, but with one more step, it could do something else as well. Let's go with a greatsword now, something that is a power weapon. Same AC. Our fighter will have Str 26, Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, a +5 keen greatsword, Improved Critical, and Ki Critical and will attack at +35/+30/+25/+20.</p><p></p><p>This time I will not go through the formula as it's up there twice already. Feel free to calculate if you wish, but I'll just give the basics here. The hit factors for the four hits, counting the critical factors (13-20/x2 each) are [(0.4*1)(0.95+0.7+0.45+0.2)]+(0.95+0.7+0.45+0.2), or 3.22 total. Average damage is 26. That gives us the following average damage per round:</p><p></p><p>26(3.22) = 83.72 damage per round</p><p></p><p>Let's do the same thing with a fighter that is not a weapon master and does not have a keen weapon, but does still have Improved Critical. This one will attack , of course, at +34/+29/+24/+19 due to not having Superior Weapon Focus.</p><p></p><p>The hit factors for the four hits, counting the critical factors (17-20/x2 each) are [(0.2*1)(0.90+0.65+0.4+0.15)]+(0.90+0.65+0.4+0.15), or 2.52 total. Average damage is still 26. That gives us the following average damage per round:</p><p></p><p>26(2.52) = 65.52</p><p></p><p>This is why so many people are supposedly complaining. They claim that without the stacking, "finesse fighters" can't begin to compete with heavy hitters like greatsword wielders. What they fail to tell you, and what is the biggest part of this, is that even at base stats for the heavy hitters WITH all the stacking for the finesse fighters, they STILL don't come close. At the same time, the damage factor of the stacking only goes up by 19%, which obviously isn't as big a difference as we all thought. This should show that finesse fighters aren't meant to dish out as much damage as heavy hitters, and that really is the way it should be. Consider that the finesse figher will have a higher AC, a higher hit chance, and other stuff as well, whereas the heavy hitter is good at simply dishing out damage. This remains the same regardless of whether criticals stack or not.</p><p></p><p>This also does show the Andy wasn't lying when he said it was taken out to make crits more special, which is STILL a good enough excuse. Why have crits if they happen all the time?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Anubis, post: 1005067, member: 2358"] Another thing I would like to point out about the greatsword and falchion is that they are both 2d4 damage weapons, whereas the greatsword is 2d6. That has a great effect on things. For accuracy, we should compare the mercurial greatsword (2d6/x4 crit) and the greatsword (2d6/19-20/x2 crit). By the way, Mike Sullivan, I forgot to thank you for explaining the formula. Like I said, my math is rusty at this point, but now I understand your numbers perfectly. Here I will do the above. We will assume that the attacker attacks once at +10. Mercurial Greatsword v. Greatsword [B]Against AC 11[/B] Average damage is 7(0.95) because 1 always misses. The critical factor for the mercurial greatsword (x4) works out to be 0.05*3*0.950+1, or 1.1425 overall. The critical factor for the greatsword (19-20/x2) works out to be (0.10*1*0.95)+1, or 1.095 overall. (To get the base factor, you put one less than the actual critical multiplier in there because weapons always do x1 damage to start with.) Anyway, moving on . . . 1.1425(7+X) > 1.095(7+X) 7.9975+1.1425X > 7.665+1.095X 0.0475X > -0.3325 X > -7 Now looking at this, when damage is the same, the x4 multiplier wins hands-down over a 19-20/x2 multiplier. Now I must ask, what on earth is the point of these numbers? How do we see exactly what happens with the Keen and Improved Critical situations? I think perhaps we need to look at different numbers. We'll use a keen rapier (fighter has improved critical and ki critical) and a normal keen rapier. This time, the purpose is to find out either how much more damage it gets to unbalance things OR show how much is actually lost in the revisions. Our fighters will have Str 18 and Dex 26, both have Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization, both weapons are also +5, and both will attack at +35/+30/+25/+20. Keen Rapier (w/Improved Critical and Ki Critical) v. Keen Rapier [B]Against AC 37[/B] For Fighter #1, the hit factors for the four hits, counting the critical factors (10-20/x2 each) are (0.55*1*0.95)+0.95, (0.55*1*0.7)+0.7, (0.55*1*0.45)+0.45, and (0.55*1*0.2)+0.2, or 1.4725/1.085/0.6975/0.31. Average damage is 14.5. That gives us the following average damage per round: 14.5(1.4725) + 14.5(1.085) + 14.5(0.6975) + 14.5(0.31) = 51.6925 damage per round For Fighter #2, the hit factors for the four hits, counting the critical factors (15-20/x2 each) are (0.3*1*0.95)+0.95, (0.3*1*0.7)+0.7, (0.3*1*0.45)+0.45, and (0.3*1*0.2)+0.2, or 1.235/0.91/0.585/0.26. Average damage is 14.5. In fact, I just realized this formula can be shortened to [(0.3*1)(0.95+0.7+0.45+0.2)]+(0.95+0.7+0.45+0.2). That gives us the following average damage per round: 14.5(1.235) + 14.5(0.91) + 14.5(0.585) + 14.5(0.26) = 14.5(1.235+0.91+0.585+0.26) = 14.5(2.99) = 43.355 damage per round So there you have it. 51.6925 v. 43.355 With Improved Critical and Ki Critical, a keen rapier does 19.23% more damage per round. This obviously mostly disproves my theory about high threat ranges causing balance issues, but with one more step, it could do something else as well. Let's go with a greatsword now, something that is a power weapon. Same AC. Our fighter will have Str 26, Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, a +5 keen greatsword, Improved Critical, and Ki Critical and will attack at +35/+30/+25/+20. This time I will not go through the formula as it's up there twice already. Feel free to calculate if you wish, but I'll just give the basics here. The hit factors for the four hits, counting the critical factors (13-20/x2 each) are [(0.4*1)(0.95+0.7+0.45+0.2)]+(0.95+0.7+0.45+0.2), or 3.22 total. Average damage is 26. That gives us the following average damage per round: 26(3.22) = 83.72 damage per round Let's do the same thing with a fighter that is not a weapon master and does not have a keen weapon, but does still have Improved Critical. This one will attack , of course, at +34/+29/+24/+19 due to not having Superior Weapon Focus. The hit factors for the four hits, counting the critical factors (17-20/x2 each) are [(0.2*1)(0.90+0.65+0.4+0.15)]+(0.90+0.65+0.4+0.15), or 2.52 total. Average damage is still 26. That gives us the following average damage per round: 26(2.52) = 65.52 This is why so many people are supposedly complaining. They claim that without the stacking, "finesse fighters" can't begin to compete with heavy hitters like greatsword wielders. What they fail to tell you, and what is the biggest part of this, is that even at base stats for the heavy hitters WITH all the stacking for the finesse fighters, they STILL don't come close. At the same time, the damage factor of the stacking only goes up by 19%, which obviously isn't as big a difference as we all thought. This should show that finesse fighters aren't meant to dish out as much damage as heavy hitters, and that really is the way it should be. Consider that the finesse figher will have a higher AC, a higher hit chance, and other stuff as well, whereas the heavy hitter is good at simply dishing out damage. This remains the same regardless of whether criticals stack or not. This also does show the Andy wasn't lying when he said it was taken out to make crits more special, which is STILL a good enough excuse. Why have crits if they happen all the time? [/QUOTE]
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