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<blockquote data-quote="Votan" data-source="post: 5202162" data-attributes="member: 18680">Undead are even worse than oozes and constructs.&nbsp; Clerics can turn them, for example, making the armored full caster class stronger against the exact creatures that the fighters and rogues are weakest against.&nbsp; This would make more sense if there were common creatures against whom the cleric felt ineffective . . .&nbsp; Similarily, the wizard has disintegrate -- the bane of so many undead creatures that I could just cry sometimes.&nbsp; And the spell is useful for utility (boring passages) and as a general combat spell so it's not a wasted slot for anybody.&nbsp; In the first half of the game, I'd agree that it doesn't matter as much.&nbsp; But in the high levels you remove a lot of rogue striking power versus these common high level foes just at the same time as the casters have enough spells to really have options.As for the skill claim, outside of an anti-magic zone, I see a wizard able to cast invisibility, fly, read thoughts, set symbols as traps, and use spider climb on walls.&nbsp; Clerics cast silence -- and with one domin they fly or teleport too.&nbsp; Bards cast glibness and suggestion is a class feature.&nbsp; It's not that the skills are valueless but that magic is starting to really move into this domain as well.&nbsp; I'm not arguing that this, per se, makes the rogue non-viable at high levels but it does make it hard to argue (convincingly) that they work in a high level and undead focused campaign.&nbsp; Maybe that is a feature and not a bug -- I don't know -- but adding sneak attack damage back in doesn't make the situation worse for rogues!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Votan, post: 5202162, member: 18680"] Undead are even worse than oozes and constructs. Clerics can turn them, for example, making the armored full caster class stronger against the exact creatures that the fighters and rogues are weakest against. This would make more sense if there were common creatures against whom the cleric felt ineffective . . . Similarily, the wizard has disintegrate -- the bane of so many undead creatures that I could just cry sometimes. And the spell is useful for utility (boring passages) and as a general combat spell so it's not a wasted slot for anybody. In the first half of the game, I'd agree that it doesn't matter as much. But in the high levels you remove a lot of rogue striking power versus these common high level foes just at the same time as the casters have enough spells to really have options. As for the skill claim, outside of an anti-magic zone, I see a wizard able to cast invisibility, fly, read thoughts, set symbols as traps, and use spider climb on walls. Clerics cast silence -- and with one domin they fly or teleport too. Bards cast glibness and suggestion is a class feature. It's not that the skills are valueless but that magic is starting to really move into this domain as well. I'm not arguing that this, per se, makes the rogue non-viable at high levels but it does make it hard to argue (convincingly) that they work in a high level and undead focused campaign. Maybe that is a feature and not a bug -- I don't know -- but adding sneak attack damage back in doesn't make the situation worse for rogues! [/QUOTE]

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