D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Fiend of Possession: rules/plot quagmire (long)

[Cyronax]

SPOILERS for my current campaign (player(s)/Felix stop reading)
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I think this kind of straddles the Rules forum and the Plots forum, but (mods) since I'm looking for more of a rules oriented critique....so i thought i'd posted it hear....thanks.

Hi, I am creating a sort of unique demon:

a palrethee demon (from MM 2) which has 6 levels in the possessor demon PrC (from FF). He'd end up being a CR 14 i believe.

My first question is basically, does the palrethee's caster level for its demonic spell-like abilities increase to 14 (8HD base demon + 6 PrC levels)?

Also here's how I envisioned having this villain be introduced:

A once pious high level Good cleric bascially agreed to let the palrethee possessor demon possess him so that it could "ride along" through an an ancient Dungeon complext loaded with alignment triggered effects and all that would have kept the demon easily at bay.

Since the demon was hiding in the cleric, they both got through okay, and at the center of the dungeon was a water elemental weird (from MM2, and which *knew* they were coming) but for various reasons decided to let things play out.

Anyway, the demon, who's goal was to use the cleric to recover an item from the vault of this water weird and then make a quick retreat. But the water weird (acting on info it easily divined), confronted the cleric, and the demon ended up deciding to try to possess the water weird.

Based on the spells i chose for the water weird, and the fact that in essence I've decided that the cleric's and demon's agreement (which may be turned into a minor template), they had come to share the same soul (which would give the demon certain huge benefits)......or something like that, I'm still fleshing this idea out.

Anyway, the weird didn't want to kill the cleric or the demon, since doing so would allow the demon to reform in the Abyss with sensitive about the item's the weird was guarding.

So in the end, the possessed cleric is put into temporal stasis. Would this spell work on both the cleric and the demon? I think it would.

Also would an insanity spell cast by the weird work on the combined cleric/demon. I'm wondering, who does the spell effect, both or something like that? Would both have made a save against the spell even if the palrethee was in control at the time? Would it be feasible to say that the cleric failed his save, while the demon passed (and therefore will be able to act when they are freed from stasis)?

Then I'm thinking that over the course of several decades, the water weird had to depart from the dungeon back to its home plane, leaving the dungeon to other guardians.

The PCs would come in, fairly easily overcome the challenges of the dungeon since they are all basically Good, and then find the cleric frozen in place.

I'm still brainstorming on this whole idea, but basically I wanted an NPC whom will either be accompanying or else competing with them to cast a freedom spell (from a scroll) on the temporally frozen cleric/demon.

Then a battle would ensue, with the cleric, probably insane, doing nothing but gibbering, while the palrethee (still weakended from whatever damage it took in the battle with the weird decades ago) to break a hasty retreat.

The party would then be left with an insane cleric and a freed demon. They'd have to then discover why all of this happened.......

This is a pretty jumbled idea, but hopefully any readers will kind of get what I'm going for. Any comments or critiques would be appreciated.

Thanks,
C.I.D.

 

[Dakkareth]

why did the cleric agree to this? He obvious must have remained good or he'd been affected, too ... what made him agree to a deal with a demon?

 

[Cyronax]

why did the cleric agree to this? He obvious must have remained good or he'd been affected, too ... what made him agree to a deal with a demon?

Doh, you're right I forgot to mention that.

The cleric's daughter was basically being held hostage, and there was a few more convoluted reasons....the main one being that he had rationalized the fact that there was a good chance that the demon wouldn't succeed. The cleric did however lose most of his spells and go from NG to N alignment.

I actually should clarify the nature of the dungeon a bit more....it is loaded with 'good' traps and all that, but there are ways in and around those traps for any non-NE or CE character (since most LE in my world are actually 'part of the solution' oddly enough). The dungeon will be easy for good characters, but since the party has half neutral characters as well as a certain items and one LE NPC who despite his badness is trusted (will leave it at that for now) I knew that I'd need to make a dungeon that sort of transcended all alignments (except for CN, NE, and CE). Any character who is not good will have a harder time, and the demon (if he escapes the battle) will probably try to possess an object or one of the PCs or NPCs (which will include the NPC with the party, the rival wth the scroll, and probably two from the dungeon itself) in order to get away.

The demon getting out of the dungeon again is fairly irrelevant. Its more or less trapped unless it can hide its prescence in a possessed item carried by a character or possess one. The demon hopefully will be slaughtered. The point of the encounter is to meet the fallen cleric and have him give the party a crucial piece of info which will make clear their the quest they're currently on.

My campaign world is pretty much a law vs. chaos type thing, and LN/LE is very very powerful, as is CE. The other alignments tend to gravitate towards one of those two factions even with the inherent differences. Incidentally, I don't allow paladins as a class.
The holy liberator as well as the consecrated harrier, blackguard, and templar PrC's fill the void.

Again, I'm not sure if I gave enough info to for people to give a good critique, but I just have soooo much backstory that I was trying to just get down to the simple mechanics of this one encounter/campaign event. The rest of the story works *i think,* despite its rather convoluted nature. But if you have a question about it, please lemme know.....this is one of my first in depth "moral plays" i've used as an adventure.

Thanks,
C.I.D.

 

[dok]

My first question is basically, does the palrethee's caster level for its demonic spell-like abilities increase to 14 (8HD base demon + 6 PrC levels)?

Nope. Caster level for spell-like abilities is a function of the creature, not it's HD. It does not change. Furthermore, any other Supernatural or Extraordinary abilities would be unchanged as well; those abilities key from the "monster class" HD. Adding levels of any class will not improve them.

Based on the spells i chose for the water weird, and the fact that in essence I've decided that the cleric's and demon's agreement (which may be turned into a minor template), they had come to share the same soul (which would give the demon certain huge benefits)......or something like that, I'm still fleshing this idea out.

Keep fleshing. This is obviously not the normal course of events for a possession, otherwise Fiends would be trying it left & right. So something unusual had to happen. Maybe the cleric's god did it as a punishment for the cleric's lack of faith and willingness to work with the demon. But the key element is something different than normal had to occur.

So in the end, the possessed cleric is put into temporal stasis. Would this spell work on both the cleric and the demon? I think it would.

You're the DM. If you think it works, it works. If you're treating the cleric/demon as a single creature, then it's a single creature for spells too. Alternatively, the demon could be aware of the passage of time, unaffected directly but still trapped inside the priest, unable to leave. Either works, really.

Also would an insanity spell cast by the weird work on the combined cleric/demon. I'm wondering, who does the spell effect, both or something like that? Would both have made a save against the spell even if the palrethee was in control at the time? Would it be feasible to say that the cleric failed his save, while the demon passed (and therefore will be able to act when they are freed from stasis)?

You've already tossed the stock possession rules out the window; what you need to do is decide if the demon/priest hybrid is a single entity or two. Obviously, something went sideways, and you need to fill in the details.

Maybe something like the Cleric somehow (possibly with divine aid) trapped the demon in himself, I dunno.

The PCs would come in... and then find the cleric frozen in place...
basically I wanted an NPC ...to cast a freedom spell (from a scroll) on the temporally frozen cleric/demon.

And here's where the whole thing falls apart. So much backstory flushed so quickly. All that story, all those rules questions, just to set up a fight between the PCs and an insane cleric and have a demon released?

And the worst part is, you want to introduce an NPC, so that the PC's have no choice in the matter: go into the room, and you'll have a demon released and you have to kill a good (but insane) cleric. That's just bad storytelling.

The piece that needs the most work is what happened with the priest & the demon that wasn't normal. How are the two connected or 'fused'?

The point of the encounter is to meet the fallen cleric and have him give the party a crucial piece of info which will make clear their the quest they're currently on.

Wow. Even more deus ex machina than I thought. Why bother with the possessing demon at all? Just have the cleric be blackmailed by a mortal person to go fetch, and have the Water Wierd nail him with Temporal Stasis. Once released, he makes for a much more interesting character: a priest 'out-of-time', ridden with uncertainty & guilt because he was blackmailed into doing the wrong thing to try & save his daughter, but because he failed & was trapped in time, he failed his daughter as well.

Better still, include the scroll of Freedom in the treasure for that room; the water wierd, knowing that the cleric was good, left it there on purpose, knowing that either good characters would reach the room & release the priest & help him atone, or evil characters would overrun the dungeon, release the priest and have to fight a powerful force for good.

 

[Cyronax]

Nope. Caster level for spell-like abilities is a function of the creature, not it's HD. It does not change. Furthermore, any other Supernatural or Extraordinary abilities would be unchanged as well; those abilities key from the "monster class" HD. Adding levels of any class will not improve them.


Keep fleshing. This is obviously not the normal course of events for a possession, otherwise Fiends would be trying it left & right. So something unusual had to happen. Maybe the cleric's god did it as a punishment for the cleric's lack of faith and willingness to work with the demon. But the key element is something different than normal had to occur.

Right, its definetely not a normal possession. As far as I've fleshed it out, I'm considering it to be a little like what you advised. The cleric, before he went insane, had basically bartered the agreement for possession out like this: save my daughter and you can become ME for the duration of your (the demon's) quest to get to the weird and do what it had to do in the dungeon. The cleric, who was probably the most pious and renown member of his order, was really the target of a long devised plot by a CE cult....so this isn't a classic quick, possession, the cult's plot basically had thrown all the other options out the window for the cleric. So despite the fact that he's lost some of his 'purity,' he's not completely fallen. An atoning act/ritual could eventually redeem him.

An offline friend suggested that the possessing demon would actually not be affected by the temporal stasis alone, so that the weird would have cast dimensional anchor as well as magic circle against chaos in order to keep the demon stuck. The demon, as you said, may then just be aware of the passage of time, and the insanity spell in this case would somewhat irrelevant although it could still be used.

And here's where the whole thing falls apart. So much backstory flushed so quickly. All that story, all those rules questions, just to set up a fight between the PCs and an insane cleric and have a demon released?

And the worst part is, you want to introduce an NPC, so that the PC's have no choice in the matter: go into the room, and you'll have a demon released and you have to kill a good (but insane) cleric. That's just bad storytelling.

The piece that needs the most work is what happened with the priest & the demon that wasn't normal. How are the two connected or 'fused'?

Actually I was thinking about that to, and part of the reason I posted was to help make my ideas less of a railroad and more of a problem the party can solve without meddling.

I actually hadn't planned it out to be a battle actually per se. The demon's sole motivating factor once its freed is going to be to escape, because its goal in the dungeon is finished.

Its goal was to find a piece of a greater holy magical item in the 'vault' of the weird, and then use a possessed creature to carry it and the item out.

...in the end, yes it could turn into a battle, and perhaps therein lies the problem. My feeling however, was that the battle would ensue after the wounded demon tries to negotiate, since the cleric no longer has spells, the demon is at a bit of a disadvantage in that form.

One of the party member's, actually a member of the fallen cleric's order, has an item that allows him to see into the ethereal (much like the shaman from OA), so the demon will be in a doubly difficult position, and likely will only escape through subterfuge. Again, the idea is convoluted and falls aparts the more i think about it. Good thing this is merely the first draft of an adventure that the party probably won't get to til Novemeber.

Wow. Even more deus ex machina than I thought. Why bother with the possessing demon at all? Just have the cleric be blackmailed by a mortal person to go fetch, and have the Water Wierd nail him with Temporal Stasis. Once released, he makes for a much more interesting character: a priest 'out-of-time', ridden with uncertainty & guilt because he was blackmailed into doing the wrong thing to try & save his daughter, but because he failed & was trapped in time, he failed his daughter as well.

Better still, include the scroll of Freedom in the treasure for that room; the water wierd, knowing that the cleric was good, left it there on purpose, knowing that either good characters would reach the room & release the priest & help him atone, or evil characters would overrun the dungeon, release the priest and have to fight a powerful force for good.

All that sounds like an excellent idea. Maybe something along those lines would work better if I do end up cutting the palrethee. I'll hold that one in reserve I guess.

Another idea that I'd also considered, was that the cleric and the demon had both been separated, and then each was put into a temoral stasis or imprisoned (with the black pearls left in an accessible place).

Nok, thanks for the help, any other comments anyone?

C.I.D.