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<blockquote data-quote="IamIan" data-source="post: 2660193" data-attributes="member: 37394">This Is True... but it is the Value of the abilities they get...Just becuase the Abilities aren't the Best possible combination doesn't lessen thier value.Yes... But I must be Missing something... Becuase the First Level of Forsaker Gives +2 at best on the same Level the Barbarian Got +1 and the Forsaker Has Great Fort +2 as a Feat... should put him at least 1 above the Barbarian and in my experience people almost never take the Extra Save Feats... The Forsaker Has to as a Class Requirement... so the Vast majority of the Time the Forsaker has +3 more than the Straight Barbarian in Fort and allot more in Will Saves....But maybe I am missing a Step or maybe it just happens to work out the same sinse either fail on a 1... and this example doesn't show the difference between the saves.Yup.. All Extra-Ordinary Abilities... Which means no way to turn them off or negate them...And by Defualt SR Never Stacks but it specificly says under the Ex Ability of SR for the Forsaker that it stacks with any other SR they may already have... only catch is that since they can't use Magic or Even Spell Like Abilities it has to be a Natural Ability of the Race they Are.ANGEL, PLANETAR&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 16&nbsp; &nbsp; at will&nbsp; greater dispel magicANGEL, SOLAR&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 23&nbsp; &nbsp; at will greater dispel magic, 1/Day wish, 1/day miracleAVORAL&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 9&nbsp; &nbsp; at will dispel magicBABAU&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 6&nbsp; &nbsp; at will , dispel magicBALOR&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 20&nbsp; &nbsp; at will greater dispel magicBEBILITH&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 10&nbsp; &nbsp; Rend Armor (Ex)GLABREZU&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 13&nbsp; &nbsp; at will dispel magicNALFESHNEE&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 14&nbsp; at will greater dispel magicPIT FIEND&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 20&nbsp; &nbsp; at will greater dispel magic, 1 / Yr WishDRIDER&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 7&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1 /Day dispel magicFormian Queen&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 17&nbsp; &nbsp; Dispel MagicEFREETI&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 1 / Day&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 WishesGHAELE&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 13&nbsp; &nbsp; at Will Dispel MagicMARUT&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 15&nbsp; &nbsp; at Will greater dispel magicZELEKHUT&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 9&nbsp; &nbsp; at Will dispel magicLAMMASU&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 4 / Day&nbsp;&nbsp; Dispel MagicGUARDIAN NAGA&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 7 / Day&nbsp; Dispel MagicNIGHTCRAWLER&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 18&nbsp; &nbsp; at Will greater dispel magicNIGHTWALKER&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 16&nbsp; &nbsp; at Will greater dispel magic , Crush ItemNIGHTWING&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 3 / Day greater dispel magic , Magic Drain (Su):GYNOSPHINX&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 3 / Day dispel magicPIXIE&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 1 / Day Dispel MagicTITAN&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CR 21&nbsp; &nbsp; at Will Greater Dispel Magic Beholder is ober with cone of anti-Magic FieldIn Epic colussus Anti-Magic Field Plus Anti - Magic Equipment...In my experience DMs rarely attack Character's Magic Stuff... when it is the biggest part of the threat to the Creature... and Intelligent Creature should know this.. and attack the magic stuff first especially those creatures with At Will Dispel Magic or Greater.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="IamIan, post: 2660193, member: 37394"] This Is True... but it is the Value of the abilities they get... Just becuase the Abilities aren't the Best possible combination doesn't lessen thier value. Yes... But I must be Missing something... Becuase the First Level of Forsaker Gives +2 at best on the same Level the Barbarian Got +1 and the Forsaker Has Great Fort +2 as a Feat... should put him at least 1 above the Barbarian and in my experience people almost never take the Extra Save Feats... The Forsaker Has to as a Class Requirement... so the Vast majority of the Time the Forsaker has +3 more than the Straight Barbarian in Fort and allot more in Will Saves.... But maybe I am missing a Step or maybe it just happens to work out the same sinse either fail on a 1... and this example doesn't show the difference between the saves. Yup.. All Extra-Ordinary Abilities... Which means no way to turn them off or negate them... And by Defualt SR Never Stacks but it specificly says under the Ex Ability of SR for the Forsaker that it stacks with any other SR they may already have... only catch is that since they can't use Magic or Even Spell Like Abilities it has to be a Natural Ability of the Race they Are. ANGEL, PLANETAR CR 16 at will greater dispel magic ANGEL, SOLAR CR 23 at will greater dispel magic, 1/Day wish, 1/day miracle AVORAL CR 9 at will dispel magic BABAU CR 6 at will , dispel magic BALOR CR 20 at will greater dispel magic BEBILITH CR 10 Rend Armor (Ex) GLABREZU CR 13 at will dispel magic NALFESHNEE CR 14 at will greater dispel magic PIT FIEND CR 20 at will greater dispel magic, 1 / Yr Wish DRIDER CR 7 1 /Day dispel magic Formian Queen CR 17 Dispel Magic EFREETI CR 8 1 / Day 3 Wishes GHAELE CR 13 at Will Dispel Magic MARUT CR 15 at Will greater dispel magic ZELEKHUT CR 9 at Will dispel magic LAMMASU CR 8 4 / Day Dispel Magic GUARDIAN NAGA CR 10 7 / Day Dispel Magic NIGHTCRAWLER CR 18 at Will greater dispel magic NIGHTWALKER CR 16 at Will greater dispel magic , Crush Item NIGHTWING CR 14 3 / Day greater dispel magic , Magic Drain (Su): GYNOSPHINX CR 8 3 / Day dispel magic PIXIE CR 4 1 / Day Dispel Magic TITAN CR 21 at Will Greater Dispel Magic Beholder is ober with cone of anti-Magic Field In Epic colussus Anti-Magic Field Plus Anti - Magic Equipment... In my experience DMs rarely attack Character's Magic Stuff... when it is the biggest part of the threat to the Creature... and Intelligent Creature should know this.. and attack the magic stuff first especially those creatures with At Will Dispel Magic or Greater. [/QUOTE]

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