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Message: <blockquote data-quote="rushlight" data-source="post: 934120" data-attributes="member: 3801">Magic NEEDED to be reduced.Or melee needed to be increased.  I've been running a continous campaign since 2nd ed, through Skills and Powers, into 3e, and soon into 3.5.One thing I've noticed in 3e is that an average mage will deal 2 or 3 times more damage out than an average meleer can, especially once you've gone above level 10 or so. Sure, it's possible to really sit and tweak and fiddle and make a melee guy who can deal out decent damage under ideal conditions, but a mage can plop down equal amounts under average conditions.  I'll illustrate further down.Suffice it to say, as a DM I continually find myself balancing encounters based on the magic users.  Whatever monster I'm throwing out needs to have the chance to survive more than a single round - otherwise what's the point?  It seems to me the challenge of the game, the heart of combat, is the process whereby the players are CHALLENGED, and either rise up and defeat that challenge, or fail, regroup and learn something.  If every combat is a single round affair, then just save yourselves some time, and mark down the XP without bothering to roll the dice.  Hell, just go ahead, make yourself 20th level, declare you "won" D&D, and move on.  Here's something to think about:Let's assume that there are two fights going on, each with an identical monster.  I'll choose an average monster, a Fire Giant, which is a CR 10, common for a party of the level we're talking about.  (Now I know that there are certain times when a mage just won't do, or a meleer just can't cut it, but we're talking about the usual, run-of-the-mill encounter here).  We've got a 10th level fighter, and a 10th level mage, and we'll give each 5 rounds to deal damage.Fighter:  Let's assume that the fighter has a STR of 20 (+5) and wields a 2-handed +5 Shocking Greatsword.  The Fire Giant has an AC of 21, so let's give our fighter Weapon focus/Spec, and Improved Crit (now 17-20, x2).  So, that gives our fighter a +21/+16 to hit.  Over 5 rounds, he'll get 5 chances at +21 (where there's a 5% chance to miss, by rolling a 1), and 5 chances at +16 (where there's a 20% chance to miss, by rolling a 4 or less).  We'll assume that all 5 of the +21 attacks hit, and 4 of the +16 ones hit, given that 20% miss chance.  So that's a total of 9 hits.  Each of those 9 hits has a 20% chance to threaten a crit, so there's 2 crits, and we'll assume that he confirms those.  So we have 7 regular hits, and 2 crits.  The first 7 hits do 2d6 (the greatsword), plus the 2-hand str bonus (+5 x 1.5 = 8, rounded up), along with the magic bonus (+5), and the Weapon Spec bonus (+2), and finally 1d6 for the Shocking.  That's 3d6+15 total, for an average of 25 points each, or 175 total.The last 2 crits do 25 points each as usual, plus another 2d6+15 each, for an additional 22 points.  That's 47 points each, or 94 total.Over all, that's 269 points of damage.Mage: Now, our mage isn't all that good.  He's got an INT of 15 (+2), the minimum needed to cast 5th level spells.  He's got 3 feats: Heighten, Empower, Maximize, and Energy Substitution.  He's got his combat spells memorized: 1st: Magic Missle x5, 2nd: Melf's Acid x5, 3rd: Haste, Fireball (as a Sonic spell) x2, 4th: Fireball (Heightned, as a Sonic spell) x3, 5th: Quickened Magic Missle x2.Our mage isn't as good at rolling as the fighter, he rolls average.Round one: Mage casts Haste, followed by a Melf's.  Round two: Melf's, followed by Melf's (haste) followed by Quickened Missile.Round three: Fireball, Fireball, Quickened Missile.Round four: Heightened Fireball, H: FireballRound five: H: Fireball, Magic MissileSo, let's see how much damage we did.  We'll start with the Magic Missiles, since those give no save.  Each one gives 5d4+5, or 17 points each, 3 times, for a total of 51.  Next we'll do those Melf's Acids, and they get no saves either.  Each does 2d4, plus another 2d4 every round for 4 rounds.  That's 3 Melfs, for 6d4, plus 4 extra rounds for the first one, and 3 extra rounds for the second and third, for a total of 20d4 extra, or 26d4 total.  That's a total of 65.  Next there were 2 fireballs, which give a reflex save.  Our DC is 15, but the giant just has a reflex save of +4, so there's a 45% chance of the giant making his save.  We'll round that up to 50%, so he saves one and fails the other.  That's 10d6, plus 5d6, or 53.  Next are 3 more fireballs, heightened to 4th level.  That reduces his change to save even more, so on average he'll save one and fail the others.  That's another 25d6 for a total of 88 points of damage.  The grand total of damage done is 204.So the fighter did 65 points of damage more, but he did so with a much higher stat, and expensive magic weapons.  Give that mage an equal value in magic items and stats (like a rod of maximization, or the like), and he'll quickly surpass the fighter.  Rise up a few levels, and damage becomes irrelevant, since the mage can then just kill outright.  Give him some useful feats that increase his DCs, and a better stat, and he'll get more of those spells through.  Powergame him out by mixing in Prestige Classes, and it gets even more insane.  It's difficult to add much more to a fighter.  Surely this wasn't a very accurate representation of random events, but I believe that it's close.  If it at least gives you something to think about, that's good.  Ask your DM (or yourself if you DM) how many times the monster dies to the mages and clerics before the fighters can get in more than a few hits, given they usually have to get in position first.  Not to mention that those magic types have a whole host of utility spells, and protection spells.  I don't really have a problem with many of the changes proposed.</blockquote>

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