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<blockquote data-quote="rushlight" data-source="post: 934770" data-attributes="member: 3801">Alright, there's alot of good discussion, so I'll go at it a piece at at time.&nbsp;Elder-Basilisk:&quot;Really, if a wizard can blow that many of his spells in a single encounter, they darn well ought to make a significant difference.&quot;Well, I did leave out all the other possibilites that a mage could take.&nbsp; They can make all manner of scrolls and whatnot to keep themselves viable throughout the day.&nbsp; In fact, the example wizard I used (with a different feat selection) could probably keep up that volume of output for many encounters, depending on his willingness to spend XP and gold.Those item-creation feats are what seperate 3e mages from 2e mages.&nbsp; Pardon the pun, but making items in 2e used a much more &quot;arcane&quot; system - i.e. it was pretty much a mystery what you should do, and only the GM knew what to do.&nbsp; This is significantly different, in that 3e allows the choice of creation feats, which by extention, forces the GM's hand to allow all sorts of items.&nbsp; Once a player has invested specific character traits into something, it's difficult for a GM to say &quot;no, you can't make anything&quot;.&nbsp; Essentially, mages in 3e have the built-in rule structure to bypass the &quot;spells per day&quot; motif that was essential to balance in 2e.&nbsp; Therefore, mages CAN extend themselves over the course of several encounters.One possibility that I left out of my example, and a significant oversight, is that were there 2 or 3 giants, the mage would have done nearly duplicate damage to those as well.&nbsp; That's something a fighter can never approach (even with the Cleave path, which IMHO, is useless*).&nbsp; Perhaps it was an oversight of mine to set my example against a single creature, when the mage really doesn't shine until there's several enemies within a nice 30 foot radius.&nbsp; It's as if the mage's damage potential increases proportionately to the number of enemies.&nbsp; The fighter can't do that.*- I feel that the Cleave path is useless, since it's only viable against very weak enemies, or only once or twice during an encounter.&nbsp; I don't think that it's useful to waste a feat onthe chance of one or two extra attacks per encounter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="rushlight, post: 934770, member: 3801"] Alright, there's alot of good discussion, so I'll go at it a piece at at time. Elder-Basilisk: "Really, if a wizard can blow that many of his spells in a single encounter, they darn well ought to make a significant difference." Well, I did leave out all the other possibilites that a mage could take. They can make all manner of scrolls and whatnot to keep themselves viable throughout the day. In fact, the example wizard I used (with a different feat selection) could probably keep up that volume of output for many encounters, depending on his willingness to spend XP and gold. Those item-creation feats are what seperate 3e mages from 2e mages. Pardon the pun, but making items in 2e used a much more "arcane" system - i.e. it was pretty much a mystery what you should do, and only the GM knew what to do. This is significantly different, in that 3e allows the choice of creation feats, which by extention, forces the GM's hand to allow all sorts of items. Once a player has invested specific character traits into something, it's difficult for a GM to say "no, you can't make anything". Essentially, mages in 3e have the built-in rule structure to bypass the "spells per day" motif that was essential to balance in 2e. Therefore, mages CAN extend themselves over the course of several encounters. One possibility that I left out of my example, and a significant oversight, is that were there 2 or 3 giants, the mage would have done nearly duplicate damage to those as well. That's something a fighter can never approach (even with the Cleave path, which IMHO, is useless*). Perhaps it was an oversight of mine to set my example against a single creature, when the mage really doesn't shine until there's several enemies within a nice 30 foot radius. It's as if the mage's damage potential increases proportionately to the number of enemies. The fighter can't do that. *- I feel that the Cleave path is useless, since it's only viable against very weak enemies, or only once or twice during an encounter. I don't think that it's useful to waste a feat onthe chance of one or two extra attacks per encounter. [/QUOTE]

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