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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 935259" data-attributes="member: 3146">If that was the objective, it failed rather dramatically. The fighter wasn't very beefed up. (A really beefed up (including stats) fighter would have been running a 28-30 strength (1/2 orc 20 starting str, +2 level, +4 item, +4 rage or human 16 starting str, +2 level, +6 empowered bull's strength, +4 rage) instead of a 20 for the encounter and would have had boots of speed). And, excepting save DCs (which were relevant for less than half of the spells the wizard cast), the wizard wasn't very stripped down (Assuming that the giant failed all of his saves will only result in a gain of 87.5 points of damage for the wizard--something that a really beefed up fighter could easily outstrip). IMO, that was what made the example a good example. One can make hyper min/maxed character easily enough but the discussion will then center upon whether each character was min/maxed properly and there's usually a way to squeeze a bit more damage out of a character. That this example centered on more typical non-beefed up characters was a good thing IMO.And even with multiple targets and beefed up DCs weighing in for the wizard (perhaps we should assume that each fireball catches 2.5 targets--although IME, allies in the area are very very relevant to area effect spells and there's only one feat (sculpt Spell) to deal with the problem (and one class ability--Archmage) neither of which are core), I suspect that a beefed up fighter would still be at least in the same ballpark as the wizard.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 935259, member: 3146"] If that was the objective, it failed rather dramatically. The fighter wasn't very beefed up. (A really beefed up (including stats) fighter would have been running a 28-30 strength (1/2 orc 20 starting str, +2 level, +4 item, +4 rage or human 16 starting str, +2 level, +6 empowered bull's strength, +4 rage) instead of a 20 for the encounter and would have had boots of speed). And, excepting save DCs (which were relevant for less than half of the spells the wizard cast), the wizard wasn't very stripped down (Assuming that the giant failed all of his saves will only result in a gain of 87.5 points of damage for the wizard--something that a really beefed up fighter could easily outstrip). IMO, that was what made the example a good example. One can make hyper min/maxed character easily enough but the discussion will then center upon whether each character was min/maxed properly and there's usually a way to squeeze a bit more damage out of a character. That this example centered on more typical non-beefed up characters was a good thing IMO. And even with multiple targets and beefed up DCs weighing in for the wizard (perhaps we should assume that each fireball catches 2.5 targets--although IME, allies in the area are very very relevant to area effect spells and there's only one feat (sculpt Spell) to deal with the problem (and one class ability--Archmage) neither of which are core), I suspect that a beefed up fighter would still be at least in the same ballpark as the wizard. [/QUOTE]

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