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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 935412" data-attributes="member: 3146">Pretty sure. Evokers were barely viable in 3e, even with the 2 spell/round Haste and +4 to DCs from Greater Spell Focus. Without either, and without a substantial increase in the damage from direct damage spells, I expect that they will be nonviable in most campaigns.That rather depends upon what counts as significant damage and what constitute the groups of foes. If you're 8th level in 3.5e and the DM is still tossing mass formations of 6-18hp orcs at you, you'll still be able to inflict substantial damage upon them. (Then again, a fighter with great cleave will mow through 3-11/round as well) If, on the other hand, you face large packs of 32 hp Wargs (CR 2 so it takes 16 of them before it's supposed to be a difficult encounter and with a decent reflex save), you'll be unlikely to do deadly damage to more than one or two with one spell in turn 1 (which is probably your only chance to catch a large group of them in a fireball or ice storm). Similarly, if your DM tosses you up against six trolls (also a tough encounter), you'll probably have to hit with four or five fireballs in order to take down one--the damage from a single spell is unlikely to be more than maybe 20% of any single creature's hit points. And if you have a DM who'd rather put you face to face with a single advanced athach or owlbear with 200+ hit points, you can forget about damage spells making any difference at all.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 935412, member: 3146"] Pretty sure. Evokers were barely viable in 3e, even with the 2 spell/round Haste and +4 to DCs from Greater Spell Focus. Without either, and without a substantial increase in the damage from direct damage spells, I expect that they will be nonviable in most campaigns. [b][/B] That rather depends upon what counts as significant damage and what constitute the groups of foes. If you're 8th level in 3.5e and the DM is still tossing mass formations of 6-18hp orcs at you, you'll still be able to inflict substantial damage upon them. (Then again, a fighter with great cleave will mow through 3-11/round as well) If, on the other hand, you face large packs of 32 hp Wargs (CR 2 so it takes 16 of them before it's supposed to be a difficult encounter and with a decent reflex save), you'll be unlikely to do deadly damage to more than one or two with one spell in turn 1 (which is probably your only chance to catch a large group of them in a fireball or ice storm). Similarly, if your DM tosses you up against six trolls (also a tough encounter), you'll probably have to hit with four or five fireballs in order to take down one--the damage from a single spell is unlikely to be more than maybe 20% of any single creature's hit points. And if you have a DM who'd rather put you face to face with a single advanced athach or owlbear with 200+ hit points, you can forget about damage spells making any difference at all. [/QUOTE]

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