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Message: <blockquote data-quote="aboyd" data-source="post: 5411272" data-attributes="member: 44797">Well, I'll be damned.  So you did.So for me, I actually use a system like this.  And I had a problem at first as I thought it up, because I was holding myself to an ideal -- that is, whatever fear they experience, it shouldn't be more than what a spell would provide.  I thought that if a natural, normal fight could instill the same fear as a spell, then what's the point of the spell?  What's the need for it?So I generally put the DC at 5, and added circumstance modifiers.  These were easy to pass, but for wimps, maybe they'd roll poorly.  That worked only kinda.  The problem?  As we played, there were a few situations where it was clear that the PCs were going to utterly wipe out everyone that opposed them.  And I felt that most intelligent creatures would be afraid to stick around for certain death.So I ended up settling on a system that mirrors the old D&D morale system, if you remember that.  In that system, morale was actually rolled twice.  The first time it was rolled was just as the threat was realized -- as the first damage was dealt, or something like that.  It was sort of a "Oh crap, we really are going to hurt each other now, do I really want to do this" kind of roll.  But then there was a second roll for the moment when the tide turned.  It was the moment when all reasonably intelligent creatures would understand that everyone was dead, dying, or would soon fall.And what I realized was that my limitation, my ideal -- the DC shouldn't be greater than a spell -- only applied to that first roll.  Most people are brave at the start of a fight.  They want to defend their friends and they don't know the level of danger yet.  But that second roll, that roll should be at least as compelling as a spell.  That's the "Now someone is going to kill me" moment, as virtually ALL of us will flee that frightening scenario.  At that point, it's not even cowardly.  It's just self-preservation.  And self-preservation is compelling.  So it just might outclass some of those compulsion spells.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Thus, what I've got is a DC 5 +/- a few points depending upon circumstance for the first roll, and then doubled plus more circumstance modifiers for the second roll.  Usually the modifier represents the "you almost certainly will lose" circumstance.Note that even with the modifier, this still means the rolls are pretty easy for most enemies to pass.  You don't really want every enemy to run.  Or at least I don't.  So as an example, let's take a room full of goblins -- 10 of them, none with class levels -- versus a team of 3rd level adventurers.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">First blood, on either side -- DC 5, -1 due to the goblins thinking there is strength in numbers.  So they need to pass a will save of 4.  You might think this is silly it's so low, but goblins actually have a -1 to their will saves, so they need a 5 or higher to stick around.  Statistically, 2 or 3 of these goblins will take off right at the outset of battle.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The adventurers obviously slaughter the goblins.  2 goblins fled, 4 are bleeding out on the floor.  The 4 remaining goblins will likely survive only 1 more round.  The DC is doubled to 8, +2 due to the visible deadliness of the adventurers, +2 due to lack of loyalty among goblins, +2 due to the flavor text in the goblin entry (they "are cowardly by nature").  So the DC is a total of 14 for the second roll.  Since they have -1 to their rolls, they need to roll a 15 or better to stick out the fight.  Statistically, one goblin will probably stand there foolishly taking another swing, not realizing that his 3 remaining allies are sneaking away behind his back.</li> </ol>That almost perfected my morale system.  I just had one problem.  For some really powerful creatures, their super-high wisdom actually forced them to behave super-stupid.  That is, their will saves were so high that they would never, ever back down from certain death.  For many, that's fine.  Some captains want to go down with their sinking ships.  But for others -- particularly the shrewd, self-interested villains -- it made no sense.In such situations, I said to myself, "They passed the fear check, but that doesn't mean they're dumb enough to stick around anyway."  And then I'd have them opt to leave, even if they passed the test.Basically, you need to remember that these rolls only determine if the NPCs are compelled to flee.  It doesn't mean they're compelled to stay.  Mechanically, you can think of it like this: highly intelligent or wise individuals might choose to deliberately fail their saving throw, because they know to get out when the getting is good.Good luck.  Have fun.</blockquote>

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