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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5713969" data-attributes="member: 87792">Guys, please stop feeding the troll.  I've reported him - can we leave him for the mods to sort out?  There's someone who's actually asking for help.  4e has 17 skills, and everyone gains general skill ranks as they level up.  Which makes 4e a good system to play skill monkeys in. In detail, rogues work out of the box - especially the Essentials Thief.  7 trained skills out of the 17 in the game as a default (you can easily get more).  The classic PHB rogue only gets 6.  Also Bards get a +1 bonus to all skills they are not trained in, can buy a feat to get a further +3 (remember that skill training is only +5), and can take as many multiclass feats (read: small crosstraining rather than actual whole level dips) as they like (other classes can only take multiclass feats to one other class).  Also the executioner is worth mentioning - in combat it's slightly weak and it doesn't have quite as many skills as the rogue.  (5 is still pretty huge).  But instead of daily attack powers it gets poisons which it can either use as blade venom or e.g. put on someone's food.  And from 8th level the class really is a master of disguise. In general, I think you will be more satisfied with the 4e skill monkeys than 3e ones.  But the Batman Wizard has gone right out of the window.  Spells augment rather than replace skills.  And because (other than rituals) you only have a few spells at a time, they diversify characters much more.  Ack!  *shudder*  That's too big for 4e - I'd try splitting the games in half.  4e tanks are very very cool.  In 3e a tank was a walking sack of hit points trying to get in the way.  In 4e, fighters are lethally fast guys who you simply don't dare turn your back on or they will <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> you up.  Attack someone else when the fighter has his eye on you and he can cut you in half.  And it really doesn't hurt both that 4e characters have a greater ability in skills they aren't trained in, and that climb, jump, and swim are now part of the athletics skill, giving tanks much greater breadth of skills even before you get into utility powers.  (It's not that hard to give a 4e fighter the breadth of skills of a 3e rogue - athletics covers three skills, stealth covers the old hide and move silently, perception covers the old spot, search, and listen, thievery the old pick lock, sleight of hand, and disarm traps and with just four trained skills you have the equivalent of an entire rogue's loadout). Not your archetype - but much more fun than they used to be.  I think you can do the same thing with a 4e bard.  And it's difficult not to get seduced by the "Vicious Mockery" at will power.  Or even a rogue using better than normal knowledge of anatomy and some interesting tricks.  As long as you avoid hybrids and start at low level, very little in 4e is broken.  (The cumulative effect of a dozen different minor advantages kicks in in paragon, but there's no one point you can really pinpoint).  Swordmages are a type of tank.  They basically hex enemies and then get to punish them if they don't attack the swordmage.  Which allows the swordmage to tank by kiting.  Warlords are fun - one of my favourite types is the stereotypical drill sergeant on the battlefield, yelling profanity at his allies and telling them that his old grandmother could do better to spur them on.</blockquote>

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