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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mike Sullivan" data-source="post: 960083" data-attributes="member: 9824">This is getting old.A two-shortsword fighter in 3.0, average damage on a full attack, level 12, against an AC 15 opponent, an AC 20 opponent, and AC 25 oppnent.Character has a +2 flaming shortsword and a +2 frost shortsword.Character has: Ambi, TWF, ITWF, WF: Shortsword, WS: Shortsword, Increased Critical: Shortsword, Weapon Finesse: ShortswordCharacter has a 22 Dexterity, and a 14 Strength (after all bonuses).To hit:  +12 (BAB), +1 (WF), +6 (Dex), +2 (Magic), -2 (TWF) = +19/+19/+14/+14/+9Damage:"On" shortsword: 1d6 + 2 (Str) +2 (Magic) +2 (WS) = 9.5 * 1.2 (critical) = 11.4 + d6 (fire) = 14.9 expected per hit."Off" shortsword: 1d6 + 1 (Str) +2 (Magic) +2 (WS) = 8.5 * 1.2 (critical) = 10.2 + d6 (frost) = 13.7 expected per hit.Versus AC 15 opponent:Partial attack expected damage: .95 * 14.9 = 14.155 damageFull attack expected damage: .95 * 14.9 + .95 * 13.7 + .95 * 14.9 + .95 * 13.7 + .75 * 14.9 = 65.515 damageVersus AC 20 opponent:Partial attack expected damage: .95 * 14.9 = 14.155 damageFull attack expected damage: .95 * 14.9 + .95 * 13.7 + .75 * 14.9 + .75 * 13.7 + .5 * 14.9 = 56.07 damageVersus AC 25 opponent:Partial attack expected damage: .85 * 14.9 = 12.665 damageFull attack expected damage: .75 * 14.9 + .75 * 13.7 + .5 * 14.9 + .5 * 13.7 + .25 * 14.9 = 39.475 damageOkay, the same character, except in 3.5.Feats:  TWF, WF: Shortsword, WS: Shortsword, ITWF, GWF: Shortsword, GWS: Shortsword, GTWF, Weapon Finesse, Improved Critical: Shortsword.Same magic items, same stats.Attack bonus:  +12 (BAB) + 1 (WF) + 1 (GWF) +2 (Magic) + 6 (Dex) -2 (TWF) = +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10Damage, on-hand: 1d6 + 2 (magic) + 2 (str) +2 (WS) +2 (GWS) = 11.5 * 1.2 (criticals) = 13.8 + d6 (fire) = 17.3Damage, off-hand: 1d6 + 2 (magic) + 1 (str) +2 (WS) +2 (GWS) = 10.5 * 1.2 (criticals) = 12.6 + d6 (frost) = 16.1Versus AC 15 Opponent:Partial attack: .95 * 17.3 = 16.435 or 116% what it would have been in 3.0Full attack: .95 * 17.3 + .95 * 16.1 + .95 * 17.3 + .95 * 16.1 + .8 * 17.3 + .8 * 16.1 = 90.18 or 137.6% what it would have been in 3.0Versus AC 20 Opponent:Partial attack: .95 * 17.3 = 16.435 or 116% what it would have been in 3.0Full attack: .95 * 17.3 + .95 * 16.1 + .8 * 17.3 + .8 * 16.1 + .55 * 17.3 + .55 * 16.1 = 76.82 or 137% what it would have been in 3.0Versus AC 25 Opponent:Partial attack: .9 * 17.3 = 15.57 or 110% what it would have been in 3.0Full attack: .8 * 17.3 + .8 * 16.1 + .55 * 17.3 + .55 * 16.1 + .3 * 17.3 + .3 * 16.1 = 55.11 or 140% what it would have been in 3.0...Okay?  Is that clear?  The changes to TWF and its follow-ups, and GWF and GWS, increase your damage by 10% to 40%, totally regardless of PA.  I assure you that you were not seeing a 40% increase in your damage output due to PA back in 3.0.Two weapon fighters are more viable in 3.5, regardless of changes to Power Attack...  And if you're a ranger, and thus don't benefit from GWF and GWS, what you do have the feats to do is use a longsword/shortsword combo instead of shortsword/shortsword, and then you can power-attack with your longsword if you think it's such a hot idea, when you're doing partial attacks instead of full attacks.So, can we please lay to rest the idea that TWF is getting nerfed?EDIT:  A quick "duh" to me, for forgetting double-weapons (I personally think they look silly, but whatever).  For fewer feats than it would take to go longsword/shortsword, a Fighter can get a double bladed sword, and improve on all of the numbers above significantly, plus, on partial attacks, get the * 1.5 str bonus and the *2 PA bonus (if he chooses to PA).  And rangers can use 'em now, too.</blockquote>

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