D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Rule question: Setting sun throws, trip and the word "resolve"

[Unclemancer]

How do the ToB's setting sun throws actually "resolve" as trips? Normally you can't use the "trip attack" on an opponent that's already prone, or a creature not using legs for locomotion like snakes and so on. But I'm pretty sure my swordsage could realistically throw a snake if he wanted to.
Does the wording "resolve as a trip" mean you could initiate a throw on a prone person, but roll the str check like you would doing a trip attack?
The throws differ from a normal trip by dealing damage and moving the opponent several squares away, so they do more that set a prone status on an already prone enemy.

My DM insists that we go with pure RAW on this ever since he saw tornado throw, but I can't find a custserv comment on this anywhere on the net.

 

[delericho]

"Resolve as a trip" just means you use the same rolls you do when making a trip attempt:

- Make a melee touch attack (which provokes an AoO)
- If you hit, make a Str check opposed by your opponent's Str or Dex check (a size bonus applies; a bonus for extra legs applies)
- If you win, your Setting Sun Throw succeeds. If you fail, your opponent can try to trip you in turn.

(Note: the rules for the Setting Sun Throw may well change some or all of that - it's quite likely the AoO and/or the "your opponent can try to trip you" might be gone. Unfortunately, with D&D Tools gone, and the book not being to hand, I don't have immediate access to the rules. )

 

[Unclemancer]

"Resolve as a trip" just means you use the same rolls you do when making a trip attempt:
)

Thanks for the quick reply. If "resolve" really means merely the touch and attack and the opposed str checks, then I wonder if the "You can't trip prone opponents" rule of the trip attack might not apply, and you could use a setting sun throw on a prone opponent.

 

[delericho]

Having now checked Bo9S, it is indeed the case that there's no AoO and your opponent doesn't get to try to trip you back if you fail. So that's about what I'd expected.

I actually think your assertion in the first post is wrong - I think you can trip an opponent that is already prone; it's just that there's no benefit in doing so (since he's already prone, and there's no notion of being "extra prone" ). In any case, I'd certainly allow the use of such powers on prone opponents.

However, technically speaking, I don't think these powers work on oozes or creatures like snakes (that is, creatures immune to being tripped). Because these powers "resolve as trip attempts", and since they don't give any indication of bypassing the immunity that these creatures enjoy, it does appear they're still immune. But you should definitely try that out on your DM, because he may very well go for it - I would, because as you say you can clearly envisage thowing a snake! (Though I'd rule such creatures don't become prone, as that condition doesn't make sense for these creatures.) Sadly, though, if he's determined to go absolutely by RAW, I fear you're SOL.

(But I'd absolutely be open to being corrected on that one - I'm not 100% certain of my interpretation.)

 

[Random Bystander]

Tripping involves interfering with an opponents' legs, such that they fall. The key word in that sentence precludes such an attempt from being made on a snake or gelatinous cube.

 

[delericho]

Indeed, but here we're talking about the Bo9S "Setting Sun" style, and specifically the various "* Throw" powers which "resolve as a trip". So they're similar to, but not quite the same as, a trip attempt.

 

[Random Bystander]

Indeed, but here we're talking about the Bo9S "Setting Sun" style, and specifically the various "* Throw" powers which "resolve as a trip". So they're similar to, but not quite the same as, a trip attempt.

I withdraw my objection. And pity his DM.

 

[Unclemancer]

I actually think your assertion in the first post is wrong - I think you can trip an opponent that is already prone; it's just that there's no benefit in doing so (since he's already prone, and there's no notion of being "extra prone" ). In any case, I'd certainly allow the use of such powers on prone opponents.

" A prone creature has already fallen down and can't be tripped."
This is the ruling I was referring to when I said prone opponents can't be tripped. The page explains the why too: Tripping a prone opponent enables a nasty case of trip locking someone with an AOO.

Now, I ended up having a discussion with my DM, and we found a houseruling we both agreed on. Throwing a prone opponent or a snake isn't bad, so we agreed that my Ssage can totally toss a yuan-ti off a cliff. But this interpretation won't apply to tornado throw and it's potential silliness of 100d6 throw damage and ~14 free improved trip melee attacks. I'm glad, because I wasn't looking to break the game - but a small shameful part of me grieves I can never go Gunz on the end boss.

Thanks for your help folks.

 

[delericho]

" A prone creature has already fallen down and can't be tripped."
This is the ruling I was referring to when I said prone opponents can't be tripped. The page explains the why too: Tripping a prone opponent enables a nasty case of trip locking someone with an AOO.

I believe Skip Williams is actually wrong here, and on two counts: firstly in his assertion that a creature who is prone can't be tripped, and secondly in that there's a risk of someone being "trip locked".

Firstly, the SRD (and, I presume, the PHB) makes no mention of prone creatures being immune to being tripped, either in the description of Trip or of Prone. As I said, there's no need: since a successful Trip renders you Prone, and there's no concept of being "extra-prone", there's no point in tripping someone who is already down.

Secondly, the "trip lock" isn't a problem because an AoO happens before the action that triggers it (except in some very specialised cases that aren't relevant here). So the sequence would be:

- Creature is prone
- Creature declares an action to stand, triggering an AoO
- AoO is used to trip the creature, rendering it prone
- Creature completes its declared action to stand
- Creature is no longer prone

(Also: although "rules of the game" appears on Wizards.com, it is not itself RAW. As I found myself recently, when I based an argument on another column in the series, only to find that the "Rules Compendium" directly contradicted it. )

 

[Unclemancer]

Huh. Not even the rules compendium says anything about the prone status barring a trip attempt. Also checked the trip lock matter, you're right.

(So the supreme court of D&D isn't custserv, but the books themselves?)