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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Turtlebuster" data-source="post: 5960101" data-attributes="member: 6696221">25-50 damage is a joke to a dragon or caster at what level? I'm assuming the dragon was young adult in which case it probably had 178 hp. 50 damage isn't by any means insanity, but if the one pc who is not designed soley to hurt things is taking less than 4 attacks to down the single largest creature it doesn't seem like a joke. And a caster... I don't know exactly what we are facing here but assuming that these are sorceror variants with d8s and ecl 10 each (sinc i've seen 5th level spells) an abnormally high con score would still have him sitting somewhere under 100.  [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION]: thanks for the vote. there are some dodge tree feats that might help - improved toughness might be alright if I didn't value a caster level over fighter bonus feats.  [MENTION=98256]kitcik[/MENTION]: what you say is helpful for a tank who wants to avoid hits, but without significant caster levels or cheesing UMD it won't help my allies. Illusion effects are less effective with how many blindisight creatures there are. A build meant to multi cast buffs might be reasonable, but these burrowers ambush us from time to time and I hate being a flatfooded caster waiting through 2 turns of initiative just to through a couple buffs on people who are already more than half dead. Flying is almost always a good idea - I have a weird drawback to using it personally... it normally seems undignified for a hero. Depends on the hero I guess. But even were I to go that route I'd need to make EVERYone fly or it would just mean losing pcs - and one of our group is very not designed for fighting with anything other than his huge sized warmace [MENTION=6678119]Jackinthegreen[/MENTION]: haha yuk. I've read it before, not my cup of team. In my opinion it's just too messy. Not that my first build here isn't pretty ugly, but if I was going for damage/physical control it'd be very easy to do with pure dungeoncrasher, combat brute and shock troop + the obvious trip/bullrush expansion on that. To be honest, in almost any case you would end up with an inifinte loop of bullrush/attacks/tripps and would make supreme cleave look like kid's stuff. But I'm not really looking to break DnD here or rely on a DM's good attitude about a super cheese set up. I might take your advice and ask about flaws. We didn't begin with that as an option but we also originally expected 6 pcs and I don't think the encounters have been adjusted much to deal with 4 so some more optimization may be allowed.I'm already trying to revise this build. A lot of ideas come to mind but I love turning attempts, I have a hard time dropping below caster lv5 and I don't have the bonus feats for most of what I consider. hmm</blockquote>

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