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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Anubis the Doomseer" data-source="post: 1067265" data-attributes="member: 12455">Originally posted by KaeYoss I've noticed that several things that aren't dealing damage directly tend to be ignored by some players.If this is the case (and I think it is) - why is it that developers go so crazy nerfing anything that doesn't do direct damage?  All you are doing is covering up flaws in you game mechanics at best - at worst you are restricting any alternative play style except direct damage.  This isn't a criticism of just the sleep spell but of many damn poor choices made in D&D system design (by and large the d20 Modern ruleset is a bit better constructed).That's exaggerating. I'm sure that almost all spellcasters get a bonus spell at first level,My comment referred to the "broken" pre-3e version of sleep - pre-3e 1st level MUs only had one first level spell per day, and access to scrolls was limited (since you couldn't make any magic items until several levels later).I think that 1st-level spells  - especially attack spells - shouldn't be very effective at higher levels.In reality they will never beat out higher level spells (Magic Missile, again, being the exception to the rule), but they should not be useless.  Sleep should remain useful at high levels - it could remain a great non-violent area of effect encounter neutralizer - a "mook" sweeper if you will, often how similar powers are used in other media (literature, movies, etc).Well, that's not the fault of the sleep spell. MM was always very powerful for a 1st-level spell.It is the definition of a broken spell.  Instant hit, the force nature of it means it bypasses all DR and incorporeality.  Long range of effect.  The damage is low but guaranteed.  Only SR or a shield spell protect against it.I hope I misunderstand you. The way I read your version of the spell could put a 20th-level fighter to sleep. I would keep the "effects the lowest HD creatures first" restriction.  Meaning if Mr Fighter 20 were the only one in the room, and failed his DC 11+ability modifier saving throw and his SR (if any) then yes, he would fall asleep.  I can't see why this is a problem at all.Really bad idea. Now we have to tailor our encounters to 1st-levels pells as well? No way.Better a bad DM has to use different monsters as their crutch against a spell (or simply house rule it) then nerfing a perfectly usable spell that presents no problems whatsoever to a halfway competant DM.  It was never that powerful a spell IMO.  A minor nerfing would have been unnecessary but tolerable but extending its casting time, AND fixing the spell effects is simply too much.- Ma'at</blockquote>

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