D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Spell Focus gives only +1 to DCs

[mmu1]

That would be two specialized magic items. Count them. Two. I don't think it takes God to count that high. And before you start mocking again, I can imagine seeing a Knight of the Chalice character like that as a PC in a campaign. I can't imagine seeing any character with GSF abjuration in any campaign.

Ah... I was assuming you were also planning on giving him some ability to stand up to the spell-like abilities of a CR 18 outsider... Let's face it, he'd get ripped to shreds.

Well a single classed fighter doesn't have any abilities that only work on outsiders (like the Dismissal spell) so it's impossible to tailor a single classed fighter as specifically to the Ossyluth situation as the abjurer is tailored. That said, a 9th level ranger with improved TWF, favored enemy Devil (stacked all the way up 3.5e style for a +6 (if I'm adding the bonus properly) bonus) and a double headed +1 Evil Outsider Bane quarterstaff (too much cash for a 9th level character to have as a primary weapon but he's supposed to be stacked for fighting devils just like the wizard is) has four attacks at +10 +str/+10 +str/+5 +str/+5 +str for 1d6+9+2d6+str (or .5 str) damage per hit and will almost certainly take the Ossyluth down in two full attack actions. (And probably has a better chance of taking the Ossyluth down in one than the wizard has). Given a means of flying and seeing invisible (both easily within the reach of a 9th level character), I'd give the ranger much better odds against an Ossyluth than the wizard.

Heck, I'd give an unspecialized 9th level fighter with a +1 good aligned sword, a potion of fly, a potion of see invisibility and some clean underwear better odds against the Ossyluth than the wizard.

You realize that if you're just giving the fighter-types specific magical items, or ones they couldn't really afford, there's no reason not to give the wizard some higher-level scrolls of appropriate spells and blast the devil to ash, right?

The only things this whole argument proves is that maybe the CR 9 of the new Osyluth is too high and that, almost certainly, Dismissal could use some tweaking... None of it proves that wizards, as a class, are too weak, or that in general terms, they're getting unfairly hurt by the change in SF and GSF.

The wizard (specialized, or not) at least has a chance of beating this thing. Whereas non-casters, even with magical items you can't expect them to realistically have, pretty much have a chance of zero, no matter how much they specialize... But no one is complaining about that. Again, if you're right in any of your arguments, the problem is with the CR of 9, not wizards getting any sort of unfair treatment.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah... I was assuming you were also planning on giving him some ability to stand up to the spell-like abilities of a CR 18 outsider... Let's face it, he'd get ripped to shreds.

Well, his Holy Aura gives him SR25. And he pretty much can't fail to Censure a 3E Balor (CR 18, 13HD).

Especially if he's permitted the Quicken Turning feat for Censure Demons, he can hardly lose...

-Hyp.

 

[Bauglir]

While I'll agree that the abjurer in that case SHOULD have a better chance that 20% or so to dismiss the fiend...

What if he was a level 11 specialist transmuter in a similar situation, armed with disintegrate? (3.0)

That spell certainly has a lot more uses, and it can be specialised just as far as the dismissal.

Spells like that have a % chance of instantly ending combat; if the % is too high they're clearly overpowered, if it's too low then they're next to useless, making it impossible to balance them properly.

Given the trend in 3.5 revisions of nerfing spell effects I would be surprised if the balance hasn't been tweaked elsewhere, increasing the % chance for them to land.

Thus the wizard avoids the frustration of watching spell after spell wasted on saves and SR, and at the same time the rest of the party avoids the frustration caused by wizards ending every combat 'with a flick of the wrist'.

 

[mmu1]

Well, his Holy Aura gives him SR25. And he pretty much can't fail to Censure a 3E Balor (CR 18, 13HD).

Especially if he's permitted the Quicken Turning feat for Censure Demons, he can hardly lose...

-Hyp.

Is that what he meant by the CR 18 outsider? Kind of pointless to use a 3.5E CR 9 Ossyluth and a (joke) CR 18 3E Balor for comparison in the same conversation. I was assuming he meant some actual CR 18 outsider...

And again, as someone pointed out before, you can't have a discussion about the balance of core rules when people continuously bring material from the supplements (meaning PrCs, in this case) into the equation...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is that what he meant by the CR 18 outsider?

No idea. But it's the only CR18 Demon in the Monster Manual.

-Hyp.

 

[Ravellion]

Isn't the problem that Dismissal is simply a crap spell? A spell geared towards getting rid of outsiders which doesn't bypass SR? Seems like a crap spell for it's purpose to me.

It's kind of like a hypothetical Slay Fireelemental spell doing fire damage (not quite, but you should be able to get my gist).

So people who defend high GSF with dismissal are making a skewed argument.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Isn't the problem that Dismissal is simply a crap spell? A spell geared towards getting rid of outsiders which doesn't bypass SR? Seems like a crap spell for it's purpose to me.

It's kind of like a hypothetical Slay Fireelemental spell doing fire damage (not quite, but you should be able to get my gist).

So people who defend high GSF with dismissal are making a skewed argument.

IMNSHO, the problem is with SR period. It is mechanically a total pile of @#$%! The game would be better without SR entirely.

The net result is some opponents get only one saving throw and some opponents get two. Is it any surprise that spell mechanics that look reasonable against the first category fall on their face against the second?

 

[Bauglir]

*Strongly agree with that one*

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMNSHO, the problem is with SR period. It is mechanically a total pile of @#$%! The game would be better without SR entirely.

To balance things out, you would have to get rid of DR, too.

 

[Henry]

I have noticed intermittent insults throughout this thread, and they just got elevated, so I'm closing this thread and asking anyone interested in continuing this discussion to give it a rest over the weekend.

Thanks!