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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Belzbet" data-source="post: 5627194" data-attributes="member: 6678902">Also I have ran into the "divine grace saving throw tanks" problem before... However  may still be possible to defeat this creature at lv 12 especially if your PC's are min=maxed with high abilities (which probaly means your melee PC has ultra high HP). I mean touch attack it and use spells that dont requries saving throws (which conveniently most ranged touch spells like the Orb libe DO NOT require saves  and they are touch attacks... Also at level 12 AC30 shouldnt be impossible to hit (with 20 str, easiy to come bv if you have high abilites, BA+12, weapon focus, and a +2 weapon your attack will be +20 (thats a 50% chance to hit AC 30 not bad at all!) and that isnt even an optimized fighter...)  so it is possible to defeat this foe even consiering the classes non-associated and heck maybe that is what you have to do to challenge your PC's I know I have to make some pretty mean baddys to challenge my group, there are 8 PC's though so.... (I will NPC's an array of 18,17,16,14,12,10 OR 18,16,14,12,10,8)... At CR 15 it may be too weak for your group but probaly CR 15 is more like the proper CR in general)..However like someone said above you must assess your party to decide this... If they are prepared with all the awseome spells to destroy fiends (a time to put those spells to use, unless it is a fiend focus campaign of course) and other gear then it could make this battle that much easier... Are you plannin gon throwing it at them alone or with backup?</blockquote>

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