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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Belzbet" data-source="post: 5627771" data-attributes="member: 6678902">Yeah but just because it is not a perfect fit doesnt mean that it is not associated (I mean a lv 3 sorc is pretty crappy you cant cast magic missile all day and one shield prevents that, and magic missile is just not that strong especially at level 3).. Where I am comming from is comparing the mind flayer and the succubus. A sorc is associated for a mind flayer (a mind flayer has sorc. spelllike abilites AND a +6 bonus to CHA)... that is it basically all the mind flayer has that is similar to sorcs, at least the important stuff... On the other hand a succubus lichfiend has +6 to wis and cleric spelllike abilities (some of its abilites are on the cleric list) so the succubus lich fiend is just as qualifiedto be a cleric as the mind flayer is to be a sorc. so by similar logic it can be argued that cleric is associated for a succubu... Also, +6 to Wis is a big bonus just because the succubus has a BIGGER bonus to Cha doesnt mean that it doesnt have a good bonus to wis (especially when considering it is a lich. i mean in the rules I am pretty sure that cleric is assocaited for a lich)... But heh your the DM so (and all that aside we can make the decsion of assocaited or not based on the EFFECTIVNESS of the combo/creature in question and it seems like a very effective combo)...But I do see where you are coming from...</blockquote>