[3.5] TALON: What are you guys going to do?

TalonComics

First Post
Cthulhu's Librarian said:


Just an FYI, Ingram also distributes to small, independant bookstores as well, not just the massive chains & discounters. Most independant bookstores (I'm not talking about comic & game shops) order from Ingram in some capacity, either using them for special orders or as their main source of books. Some indy booksellers have the books as well, and they were never informed of any street or on sale dates. Ingram just shipped the books to them with their regular book orders.

And that apparently is where the problem sits. WotC let it happen and is insisting distributors and retailers maintain a street date where as Ingram didn't have to.

If the Ingram issue isn't fixed, distributors are basically going to give WotC the finger and open accounts with Ingram instead. This isn't a rumor... This is what will happen.

Should it happen? No, I don't think it should but this is going to be a nasty can of worms if it isn't resolved very soon.

~D
 

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JohnNephew

First Post
Because the sales to book stores are returnable, book stores often get a lower discount than the non-returnable hobby sales. I.e., WotC makes more money per copy (but incurs the risk of returns).

Interestingly, this means that the more books sell via the book trade (say, because the books are not yet available in the hobby trade), the more cash from those sales goes into WotC's pocket, and the less returns risk they face.

I've heard that many stores with Ingram accounts ordered the books as booksellers (getting a lower discount on those copies), in order to have them on sale early. Ingram apparently made no effort to enforce or even to inform accounts of the official street date for the books.

The tragedy of all this is that a lot of stores were planning big events to coincide with the release of the new edition. Those events are now shafted, as mass market and book trade competitors have the books on sale early. There's no point in having a midnight Harry Potter party -- a week after your competitors sold the books to your customers who are the most enthusiastic fans. (And the success of the worldwide street date of the recent Harry Potter book demonstrates that the book trade and mass market CAN enforce street dates, if their feet are held to the fire.)

However it came about, this is a massive betrayal of the independent game retailer (and the game distributors as well). As a d20 publisher I am disappointed because I see retailers not making profits that they could have to reinvest in improving their stores (i.e., stocking more of my products! as well as merchandising, better fixtures, etc.). I am also concerned that retailers will be investing in more inventory than is really appropriate, given the botched release date. I hope that distributors are giving retailers a chance to reduce their orders -- and, in turn, that WotC is allowing the distributors to pare back their orders, if necessary, due to the sales that went early and unfairly through other channels.
 

KDLadage

Explorer
Olive said:


I agree, but I don't think this is a result of trying to drive FLGS's out of business.
Thus, I think this is an accidental effect of a much larger problem. I was not trying to assign motive, only display a rather straight-forward point about their motive not being the issue: the effect is the same.
 

Coik

First Post
TalonComics said:
That means I will be receiving the books, as planned, Friday morning and shipping out that same day.

Hellfire.

Ah well.

Anyone happen to know if next-day delivers on Saturdays? And do you need to sign a release?
 

Gizzard

First Post
WotC let it happen and is insisting distributors and retailers maintain a street date where as Ingram didn't have to.

Hmmm, I saw them on Tuesday at the local GameKeeper. I can't remember what GameKeeper's current distribution arrangement is, but I had thought they were somehow an arm of WotC. It would be rather naughty to slam the door in the face of your distributors while slipping the goods to your own retail outlets on the side.
 

proditor

First Post
Gamekepper is to the best of my knowledge, owned by Hasbro.

Now here's the real rub on this....

WotC stores are being told they /might/ get the 3.5 books by the 18th. The entire WotC debacle of owning retail outlets has to be the biggest comedy of errors I have ever seen. Watching them jump on to the local scene in a bright flash of optimism and then just slowly wither away to nothing has been painful but expected. The two in my area will be closing in August and September respectively.
 

Coik said:


Hellfire.

Ah well.

Anyone happen to know if next-day delivers on Saturdays? And do you need to sign a release?
Some shippers let you sign a waiver when you ship--basically, a "leave the package there without a signature and have no liability" option. You could ask about doing that, but on the one-in-a-million chance something goes wrong, you get the shaft.

I've never had a problem with it.
 

herald

First Post
Olive said:


I agree, but I don't think this is a result of trying to drive FLGS's out of business.

Take the quote in context.

"What are they trying to do, drive FLGS out of business?" is an ironic , if not sarcastic question. I don't beleave that WOTC is trying to drive FLGSs out of business, but I do beleave on this subject that they are being neglectful. They are forcing good people to obey thier rules, and they aren't doing anything about the ones that aren't.

And really there isn't much they can do about the big boy's. WOTC can't make Walmart suffer. WOTC is a small part of Hasbro, and to be honest, if they stopped shipping Walmart product, Hasbro would continue to do business with them and not bat an eye.

And to be honest, if they don't do something publicly, then they haven't done anything at all. There is no punishment if there is no shame, IMHO.

So the least they could do is allow the book flow at this point an allow the retailers that followed the rules to try and catch up with those that broke the rules. But that's just my opinion.
 

nharwell

Explorer
Oddly enough, Diamond Comics (a major distributor for FLGSs) claims that WOTC told them the street date is July 30th, so they won't release the new books until then :(
 

WizarDru

Adventurer
nharwell said:
Oddly enough, Diamond Comics (a major distributor for FLGSs) claims that WOTC told them the street date is July 30th, so they won't release the new books until then :(

Which is probably a way to encourage folks to use other outlets besides Diamond. Considering, thank to the horrific events of the early 90s, that Diamond now completely controls comic book distribution, I think that it's a Good Thing (tm).
 

Nine Hands

Explorer
TalonComics said:
I agree, I do not think WotC is trying to drive gaming stores out of business in any way, shape or form. I do think they're being very insensitive to gaming stores and distributors, however.

The only excuse that I've heard from WotC for not going ahead and letting distributors ship to retailers early is that they want to give time for distributors and retailers who haven't received the books yet to get them. That was the original reasoning behind having the street date to begin with to allow for fair competition.

Once all of the bookstore chains broke street date I think WotC should have given the go ahead for everyone else to ship upon arrival. Because they didn't, now instead of just a handful of places losing sales we're now seeing hundreds of stores getting screwed.

~D

I totally agree with this. Our local store will be recieving the books later today but is not selling them until Midnight Friday (sort of like an album release).

It was nice to see the distributor trust our store that much, since they never break a street date from what I have seen. Also it gives me a chance to hang out with some of my friends after work (since I work nights).

The problem is that the store has already lost sales to people who just want the books right away. This revenue can't be recovered either and since the store has gaming tables and a private room (for free use), I find it pretty sucky that these individuals went to another place to get 3.5 while they then turn around and game in the store. Its pretty lame if you ask me :(
 

TalonComics

First Post
Coik said:


Hellfire.

Ah well.

Anyone happen to know if next-day delivers on Saturdays? And do you need to sign a release?

Yes, USPS delivers on Saturday. That's pretty much why I use USPS over UPS. As far as I know, the only time a signature is required is if the sender requests it. Otherwise, I imagine you will get a knock at your door and they leave it or they stick it in your mailbox if it's large enough.

~D
 

TalonComics

First Post
nharwell said:
Oddly enough, Diamond Comics (a major distributor for FLGSs) claims that WOTC told them the street date is July 30th, so they won't release the new books until then :(

Just to clarify some things with Diamond:
First, Diamond is a comic distributor more than anything. All shipments from Diamond, unless they're reorders, are received on Wednesdays.
If Diamond receives the revised books at the end of this week they won't have time to be processed for next week's invoice which in turn delays their release until the following Wednesday which is the 30th.
If you're a game retailer, you're probably not going to be getting your games through Diamond but through another distributor that totally deals in games. Alliance, the largest game distributor, is owned, but ran separately by Diamond. Alliance ships everyday instead of just on Wednesdays.

~D
 


TalonComics

First Post
herald said:


Take the quote in context.

"What are they trying to do, drive FLGS out of business?" is an ironic , if not sarcastic question. I don't beleave that WOTC is trying to drive FLGSs out of business, but I do beleave on this subject that they are being neglectful. They are forcing good people to obey thier rules, and they aren't doing anything about the ones that aren't.

And really there isn't much they can do about the big boy's. WOTC can't make Walmart suffer. WOTC is a small part of Hasbro, and to be honest, if they stopped shipping Walmart product, Hasbro would continue to do business with them and not bat an eye.

And to be honest, if they don't do something publicly, then they haven't done anything at all. There is no punishment if there is no shame, IMHO.

So the least they could do is allow the book flow at this point an allow the retailers that followed the rules to try and catch up with those that broke the rules. But that's just my opinion.

There are going to be some major talks about this whole situation at Gencon. I wish I could be there for that. :(

Because of the nature of this situation and the amount of dollars being lost over it, there is a very good chance that legal action will be taken against WotC probably from several directions. It's just a rumor at this point but don't be surprised if it happens. My speculation is it could even happen in a class action suit.

From everything I've heard, there are collectively several hundred retailers and distributors who have potentially lost thousands of dollars over this.

~D
 

dsfriii

First Post
Nine Hands said:

The problem is that the store has already lost sales to people who just want the books right away. This revenue can't be recovered either and since the store has gaming tables and a private room (for free use), I find it pretty sucky that these individuals went to another place to get 3.5 while they then turn around and game in the store. Its pretty lame if you ask me :(

Well these people do they also my other gaming products from the store??? I agree if they do not buy a thing from the store and use the free gaming space then they are lame. But if they buy there splat books there, dice, source books, adventures, minis, and other games. then I do not see the problem if they can save some money once in awhile....
 

TalonComics

First Post
youspoonybard said:
Talon, if we get normal shipping, what day are they due in? Thank you!

I ship normal shippng via USPS Media Mail. As everything is going out on Friday, Media Mail should get to you, depending on distance from me, next Tuesday to Thursday. I can still upgrade shipping to Priority Mail for an extra 10 dollars which would put it to you on Monday.

I'm good to go! We're just waiting for the books to be here tomorrow morning. :)

~D
 

dsfriii

First Post
Because of the nature of this situation and the amount of dollars being lost over it, there is a very good chance that legal action will be taken against WotC probably from several directions. It's just a rumor at this point but don't be surprised if it happens. My speculation is it could even happen in a class action suit.

:rolleyes:
 

TalonComics

First Post
Dsfriii, smirk all you want to but I don't think you realize how much money was lost over this nor do you realize how many people are totally pissed off over it.

You may think my comments are me under the influence of "sour grapes" but the reality of this situation is no different, other than scale, than if the fifth Harry Potter book was massively released early by some book stores where as other book stores were forced to maintain the street date.

~D
 

dsfriii

First Post
Okay then please educate me. How much money have you lost from Amazon, Wal-mart and others selling the product early??

I could be wrong. Please I am more than willing to listen...
 

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