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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kitcik" data-source="post: 5506086" data-attributes="member: 98256">Do you consider maneuvers to be spells? Assuming not, I would put your Paladin against a Warblade. Maybe 2 Paladins against a Warblade. I suspect that people who say Paladins are fine as is are playing with older (say 35+) players like myself. People who have a history in 1E remember the days when the classes were more balanced and there was a lot less optimization (the latter being the pre-internet days). We tend to continue to play the classes as we did back then, with Wizard types staying mainly in the back and casting direct damage and clerics soaking up attacks and healing people. I think seeing an even somewhat optimized group of Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer would be truely eye-opening. In fact, I would like to see it - although I think I am decent at envisioning it.</blockquote>